When someone is struggling with you...

I can't help but notice no one is adding:
If you are struggling over a firearm and the muzzle is pointed in the right direction (i.e. towards the aggressor) pulling the trigger repeatedly probably won't be a bad idea.
At least for me, not having much training in the way of hand to hand combat, I would plan on a quick hard blow to the face chin or throat with my weak hand then firing from a retention position as fast as I can.
Failing this, if I am in a struggle for a handgun, I'm taking any opportunity to put bullets into my adversary, even if his hands are on my gun.
Yes I know semiautos won't fire out of battery and so on, but theres a chance, especially with me pulling backward on it, it will fire. I would think 165 grains of lead and copper passing through a guys belly would have a good chance of loosening his grip.
If it doesn't fire, I guess you just have to fight for that gun like your life depends on it because at that point it does.
Also, as gun4fun said, when you do get him off of you: step back, Tap, Rack, Bang.
 
Yes, definately try to shoot is sorry butt. I just assumed we were all in agreement on that:D. Just remember that when struggling for the gun, there's a delay between the brain and hand, and when the decision is made to pull the trigger, during the approximate 1 second reaction time (for an average person) the gun can and probably will be moved from where it was pointing when you made the decision. You SURE don't want that to be in your direction!

dbl bbl daryl- it sounds like you already have a good idea of what to do, so I'd say your chances are better than most peoples. I can't tell you how many people seem to think that simply being armed or a gun fan will give them the upper edge. If by some terrible circumstance, you ever have to go through a situation like this, don't have the mind set to strike once or twice and then shoot. Strike rapidly and repeatedly until you have clear and decisive control of the gun. Then shoot until you no longer feel any threat. One other thing to remember for anyone reading this, SHOUT FOR HELP the whole time you are struggling. Bystanders and witnesses will all be able to truthfully tell responding LEO's that, hey, this guy who did the shooting was screaming bloody murder and was in a fight for his life. If the BG lives, you don't want him to be able to turn the whole thing around on you and say that you were actually the aggressor, and that he was actually struggling for his life. Scream for help, and for someone to call the cops, even if you can see that your getting the upper hand in the fight.
 
Unfortunately that's not always possible. When someone paints you as a target, they aren't always going to walk up and let you know their intentions. Stating that you'll never allow a BG to close the distance on you is foolish at best, dangerously over confident at worst. If it were really that simple then we wouldn't need to carry weapons, since we'd be able to simply avoid the BG before the conflict starts. Just my .02
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I agree with this point... We are in "public" afterall. We are living our lives and going about normal activities. We are not jumping into a profile stance everytime somene gets inside your "reactionary gap". Bottom line is that if you carry a weapon, there are certain responsible skills that you need to possess e.g How to safetly handle a firearm, how to fire it in a reasonably proficient manner, how to maintain control over its posession and a reasonable knowledge the laws that govern firearms and use of force.
 
If I have a gun and I let a bad guy get close enough to me that I have negated my ability to use the gun,then I have committed a very serious error in my awareness of what is going on around me.

My gun comes out at anytime,it's likely to be fired right away.

I won't be pulling it to scare a bad guy.

You cannot let someone that might hurt you,get that close to you.

If I am aware of the person,I will establish my personal perimeter and he will obey that perimeter or get shot.
 
"...the BG trying to take the gun away from US..." You made a tactical error by letting him get that close. Oh and Bruce Lee was supposedly shot in the back. His son was killed with a blank on a movie set. Martial arts didn't help either.
 
If you are struggling over a firearm and the muzzle is pointed in the right direction (i.e. towards the aggressor) pulling the trigger repeatedly probably won't be a bad idea.
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If we're struggling over my .357 snub, and the muzzle is not pointed at me or a bystander, pulling the trigger is quite likely to end the struggle, or at least reduce his usable hands by one. Having gotten my flashlight hand a bit far forward during night practice, I can't imagine hanging on to the gun if one's fingers were actually wrapped over the gap in contact with the frame.

Gap flash can be pretty useful. I've considered a ported .44Mag snub as an even more retainable weapon.
 
Training Extreme Close Quarters

Originally Posted by dbl brl daryl
I also think these drills and demonstrations are ridiculous - unless you are attacked by Frankenstein or someone else with really slow reflexes and limited range of motion in their extremities. I don't know how to work on weapon retention, as I feel should involve full force blows to the face or throat to be effective and I don't know anyone who will let me break their nose or crush their trachea to practice this.
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With the right protective gear and training methodology this is done regularly. I've been using High Gear impact reduction suits in Extreme Close Quarters Counter ambush training with SWAT, LE, Mil and civilian students since 2001. Shivworks also does good work in this area with high speed contact drills and sim guns. I think they use FIST protective gear. I took the close quarters knife course that they offered earlier in the year in the Denver area and was impressed with the opportunity to go at high speed and with real contact. I'l admit that this is rare and should be done with experienced instructors, but the training is available.

I can assure you that it is full speed and force. There are only a few role-players that I allow to be the adversary in these drills and we don't let students go against students. Applying an appropriate amount of force, pushing the student to his limits and in-role coaching has always been a big part of ECQT training. This program became especially popular with military clients during the lifetime of VTC and we've recently been asked to start it up again for another military unit at their site. It will result in some bumps and bruises, but should not result in injury if done responsibly. That said, we've had a few small connective tissue and laceration injuries over the years and plenty of sore muscles, but we've also had hundreds of students go through this training.

The 2-3 day ECQT course that we teach includes S.P.E.A.R. Fundamentals, excerpts from the G.R.A.C.I.E. grappling program and some close quarters striking with the contact/retention shooting principles (which are also available on DVD).

I'm sure that Shivworks and I.C.E. aren't the only ones doing this type of
training.

is anyone gonna throw out a weapons retention tip for the uninitiated or should i stop reading this thread now?
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The easiest "tips" that I can throw out are these:

1. We teach to move-in whenever space, awareness and athleticism allow to prevent/disrupt a close quarters attack rather than trying to create space or go to your own weapons. Generally we use "two arms reach" as the guideline.
2. The biggest "mistakes" we see in close quarters gun handling are sloppy presentations from the holster that sweep the gun away from the body before the muzzle is oriented towards the threat, giving the BG the opportunity to interfere with/grab the gun before they can be significantly affected by it and ready positions that don't keep the gun close to the body after a shooting in a confined/crowded area, causing the sam problem. Fixing both of these starts with good practices when going through "normal" defensive shooting training, with methods that are consistent with good retention practices.

-RJP
 
"QUOTE Teuthis
I recommend that if you confront someone with your pistol, do not stick it out in front of you in Hollywood fashion. Keep it tucked in at your side with the barrel just ahead of your torso. Keep it slightly away from your body. A revolver ejects hot gasses and a semi-auto needs room to cycle the slide. That is one reason why you keep it ahead of your torso and out a little. You can hold it at belt level, or up higher, but keep the barrel just ahead of your torso.

If the aggressor comes at you and you feel compelled to fire, do not hesitate. The position of your pistol will allow you to take a step back if necessary and turn slightly. Just be sure to keep your weak hand back, or if you need to fend off the aggressor, keep it up high so you will not shoot yourself. There will be a moment in which you realize you should fire. That is when you shoot. If you stop to think and wonder you will lose that tactical advantage that you get for one second.

To become proficient at this maneuver, you should practice it in dry fire drills and at a range with live rounds. Remember to look where you want to rounds to go. If you drill enough, you will find them going where you are looking.

Above all, do not poke the pistol out into the aggressor's reach, where he can wrench it from your grasp. There are people out there, even some who responded to your post, who can do so."

Thats exactly what I had to do a BG charged me & I fended him off with my Streamlight once and as I was backpedalling, he came up with a knife . I drew, shortstopping my weapon by my side as I fended him one more time weak hand with my light and fired into his chest taking him down with one round. When I fired my revolvers trigger guard was against my side with my strong side bladed away from him and the revolver rotated 90 degrees.
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"...the BG trying to take the gun away from US..." You made a tactical error by letting him get that close. Oh and Bruce Lee was supposedly shot in the back. His son was killed with a blank on a movie set. Martial arts didn't help either.
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As others have said earlier, you don't need traditional martial arts training. Having the capability to deal with an attacker at close range could hardly be considered a bad thing.
 
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Neverwinter said:
As others have said earlier, you don't need traditional martial arts training. Having the capability to deal with an attacker at close range could hardly be considered a bad thing.
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Amen! That was my point. Take advantage of anything that will give you the edge in life.
Merry Christmas to everyone!!!:)
 
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