supergas452M
Moderator
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So am I to some over confident martial art student BG that wants to take my gun. GG's have no reason to worry.
Nuff said.
BTW, arent these forums wonderful?
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When someone is struggling with you...
- Thread starter CDRogers
- Start date
So am I to some over confident martial art student BG that wants to take my gun. GG's have no reason to worry.
Nuff said.
BTW, arent these forums wonderful?
Yea, they're wonderful....
Are you implying that I'm some kind of bad guy? If not, then I don't see a connection to what I posted and your statement. If you meant that your a dangerous thing to a bad guy, then fine, but your statement implies that I'm a bad guy because I'm a martial art student, otherwise why bring the words martial art student BG into your statement? There's an old saying that goes, " A well trained little man beats an untrained big man every time, but a well trained big man beats a well trained little man every time." So it goes out on the street. If your attacker is trained to fight, and knows how to handle weapons skillfully your chances go down on surviving an assault. I don't understand why anyone would argue with being prepared. I'm not trying to sell anyone a membership to a dojo, I'm saying everything you can do to prepare should be done. Anyone who would argue this is diluted. We are supposed to all be good guys here, yet I constantly see guys with no experience in something, knock it when another forum member brings it up. That kind of reasoning escapes me. Like they teach in martial arts as well as the police academy, you'll fight the way you train. If you don't train at all for something like an attack, where you have to try and retain your weapon, you'll fight that way out on the street. I will take every edge available to me. You do what you think is best, and hope your training will work in the real world, especially if you have to fight with one hand and retain your gun with the other. GOOD LUCK!
Are you implying that I'm some kind of bad guy? If not, then I don't see a connection to what I posted and your statement. If you meant that your a dangerous thing to a bad guy, then fine, but your statement implies that I'm a bad guy because I'm a martial art student, otherwise why bring the words martial art student BG into your statement? There's an old saying that goes, " A well trained little man beats an untrained big man every time, but a well trained big man beats a well trained little man every time." So it goes out on the street. If your attacker is trained to fight, and knows how to handle weapons skillfully your chances go down on surviving an assault. I don't understand why anyone would argue with being prepared. I'm not trying to sell anyone a membership to a dojo, I'm saying everything you can do to prepare should be done. Anyone who would argue this is diluted. We are supposed to all be good guys here, yet I constantly see guys with no experience in something, knock it when another forum member brings it up. That kind of reasoning escapes me. Like they teach in martial arts as well as the police academy, you'll fight the way you train. If you don't train at all for something like an attack, where you have to try and retain your weapon, you'll fight that way out on the street. I will take every edge available to me. You do what you think is best, and hope your training will work in the real world, especially if you have to fight with one hand and retain your gun with the other. GOOD LUCK!
thinking about it i realized that if i was wearing a fixed blade knife on my weak side, that must mean some kind of SHTF, because otherwise im not going to walk around with a fixed blade knife on either side.
just as likely to walk around with a bowling ball in my back pocket. im not preparing for combat, im going to get a pizza, so i takes my chances i guess.
ya'll carry on....
just as likely to walk around with a bowling ball in my back pocket. im not preparing for combat, im going to get a pizza, so i takes my chances i guess.
ya'll carry on....
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FireForged
New member
If you are carrying a lawfully concealed firearm, then likely any knife you carry on your belt will be concealed as well. Concealed Fixed Blade Knives pose a legal problem in many States.
grymster2007
New member
I had a guy struggle with me (unarmed) and I took his gun away. Just grabbed it, twisted it out of his hand and had it pointing at him almost before he could say "don't shoot!". Now, whether it was he or I that was the BG is a matter of opinion.
Retention Tips
Wow, I really stirred up a hornet's nest of opinion, but I guess that's good.
Gun 4 Fun is right: retention techniques are best practiced in the dojo, but here's some food for thought; a) if somebody grabs your gun, it's best not to "resist" in opposition to him. In other words, if he pulls, don't pull back. The old Judo adage is "When your attacker pulls, push; when your attacker pushes, pull." The goal is to keep your attacker off balance; b) as you pull in reaction to his "push" (or push in reaction to his "pull,") twist and turn your body, so that he is thrown away from you--hopefully, over your bent leg ("tai-otoshi"); c) your attacker will probably be obessed with your gun, i.e. all his energy will be focused on that; you, meanwhile, don't have to be overly foucused on the battle between his hands and your hands. What I mean is, while he is focused on your hands, you can use your feet: stomp his foot, kick his shin with the instep of your shoe (hurts like the blazes), drive you knee into his thigh (you haven't lived until you know what that feels like); and use your head, i.e., head butt him on the bridge of his nose, or against his ear---all the while twisting his wrists. d) You can also roar into his face ("ki-ay"); a terrifying roar fills you with fighting spirit, while making him think of better things to do with his time; a good roar also alerts those around you to the crisis (if they don't help, at least you have witnesses). BTW, a blood curdling roar can be perfected in your car as you drive, with the windows rolled up--anywhere else, other than the dojo, will make people think you're having a very bad day. I've only used martial arts once on the street--foiling a purse snatcher, and holding him on the ground in a proper submission until the cops came---and I think what scared this tough guy the most was my roar; he thought he was struggling with a maniac. And, of course, that's what I wanted him to think.
It's very important not to fight your attacker's wrist strength with your wrist strength, as he tries to wrench your gun away from you---especially if you're an old fart like me. You want to change your focus, so that you are attacking him high and low, and twisting and turning your torso, while hanging on to your gun all the while.
I'm sure Gun 4 Fun can help us here with more tips.
Hopefully none of us will ever be in this position, but it's good to think about it and to practice occasionally.
Happy Holidays
Dan
Wow, I really stirred up a hornet's nest of opinion, but I guess that's good.
Gun 4 Fun is right: retention techniques are best practiced in the dojo, but here's some food for thought; a) if somebody grabs your gun, it's best not to "resist" in opposition to him. In other words, if he pulls, don't pull back. The old Judo adage is "When your attacker pulls, push; when your attacker pushes, pull." The goal is to keep your attacker off balance; b) as you pull in reaction to his "push" (or push in reaction to his "pull,") twist and turn your body, so that he is thrown away from you--hopefully, over your bent leg ("tai-otoshi"); c) your attacker will probably be obessed with your gun, i.e. all his energy will be focused on that; you, meanwhile, don't have to be overly foucused on the battle between his hands and your hands. What I mean is, while he is focused on your hands, you can use your feet: stomp his foot, kick his shin with the instep of your shoe (hurts like the blazes), drive you knee into his thigh (you haven't lived until you know what that feels like); and use your head, i.e., head butt him on the bridge of his nose, or against his ear---all the while twisting his wrists. d) You can also roar into his face ("ki-ay"); a terrifying roar fills you with fighting spirit, while making him think of better things to do with his time; a good roar also alerts those around you to the crisis (if they don't help, at least you have witnesses). BTW, a blood curdling roar can be perfected in your car as you drive, with the windows rolled up--anywhere else, other than the dojo, will make people think you're having a very bad day. I've only used martial arts once on the street--foiling a purse snatcher, and holding him on the ground in a proper submission until the cops came---and I think what scared this tough guy the most was my roar; he thought he was struggling with a maniac. And, of course, that's what I wanted him to think.
It's very important not to fight your attacker's wrist strength with your wrist strength, as he tries to wrench your gun away from you---especially if you're an old fart like me. You want to change your focus, so that you are attacking him high and low, and twisting and turning your torso, while hanging on to your gun all the while.
I'm sure Gun 4 Fun can help us here with more tips.
Hopefully none of us will ever be in this position, but it's good to think about it and to practice occasionally.
Happy Holidays
Dan
EastSideRich
New member
I think there has been a misunderstanding.
When practicing “in your dojo”, is it against someone actively trying to attack, or is it against a “hold this knife out and come at me like this”? Do you have to defend against a dynamic situation where someone is pressing the attack, or is it a well choreographed “stick the knife out and I’ll grab your arm, etc.”?
I also think there is some selective reading going on. What I also said was:
I’m not spouting off as you put it, I’m making an observation that when I’ve seen things like disarming techniques demonstrated, they don’t seem to look like a real attack.
I don’t even know how this discussion got turned into this. My main point was in an attack there may be some hesitation while your mind processes what is happening and you are deciding if it’s really time to draw and fire.
That’s kinda my point exactly. In most of the demonstrations I’ve seen, this is not the case. The “bad guy” will do something like lunge with a knife, arm extended, elbow locked, and then freeze once contact has been made. I would very much like to see some demonstrations where an attacker is violently slashing (at full speed) and trying to maintain his attack; even after making contact with the other party.
When practicing “in your dojo”, is it against someone actively trying to attack, or is it against a “hold this knife out and come at me like this”? Do you have to defend against a dynamic situation where someone is pressing the attack, or is it a well choreographed “stick the knife out and I’ll grab your arm, etc.”?
I'm not one of these "my hands are deadly weapons" guys, but if I am in a struggle I am going to try to land the most severe blow I can in order to get the attacker off of me and draw or retain my weapon. I don’t have the formal training that you obviously do, but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to defend myself.
I also think there is some selective reading going on. What I also said was:
I would like to see what they have to offer. I would also like to practice trying to retain a weapon during an attack.
I’m not spouting off as you put it, I’m making an observation that when I’ve seen things like disarming techniques demonstrated, they don’t seem to look like a real attack.
If you want to make that analogy, obviously you can’t put on bullet proof vests and practice a real shootout. You could theoretically put on gear and practice weapon retention or disarming techniques against someone actively trying to maintain an attack – with real striking and grappling. I haven’t seen this done, which is why I don't like the demonstrations I've seen – maybe “in your dojo” you do train like this.
I don’t even know how this discussion got turned into this. My main point was in an attack there may be some hesitation while your mind processes what is happening and you are deciding if it’s really time to draw and fire.
I would like to apologize to any and all I may have offended. I believe I was arguing with two people and may have directed my comments to both parties instead of the person they actually were intended for. That said, this got off on the subject of weapon retention because in post number 7, I pointed out that I might hesitate to shoot for amoment due to my surroudings, and the fact that I might accidently hit an innocent bystander. Someone else posted that all that mattered to them was saving their own hide. I disagree. We have a responcibility to keep from harming anyone not involved.
I then went on to say that if we pause before shooting or are suddenly attacked we need to be able to retain our weapon.
As far as the training you referred to, I have been in on that as well. You are correct that some of it is "goofy". But, like I posted any training at all is better than no training. At least going through the motions will give a person the basic understanding of the principles involved. Obviously, you'll have to step up the intensity in real life combat situations. I have come home seriously sore ,and bruised. I have even had my right leg broken just above the ankle in two places training hard, so no, we don't always go full bore. I'm not trying to claimto be something I'm not either. I'm just an average guy, who had/has a love of the martial arts, as well as firearms and tried to combine them whenever possible.
CDRogers- You are obviously for real. Most people outside of the "arts" would not know what tai-otoshi is. or osoto-gari
. Or Kiai, for that matter. Your last post was very well stated in my opinion. Kiai, for anyone interested is simply the word yell in japanese. If done correctly it serves several purposes, one of which has already been stated by CDRogers, and is an extremely useful tool in weapon retention, as well as disarm techniques.
dbl brl daryl- I applaud your determination to fight back as forcefully as possible. Most people will say that, but will hesitate when attacked violently and without warning. That's why constant training and mental preparation are so important, as well as drilling in every technique you can find, even if some of it is lame.
I then went on to say that if we pause before shooting or are suddenly attacked we need to be able to retain our weapon.
As far as the training you referred to, I have been in on that as well. You are correct that some of it is "goofy". But, like I posted any training at all is better than no training. At least going through the motions will give a person the basic understanding of the principles involved. Obviously, you'll have to step up the intensity in real life combat situations. I have come home seriously sore ,and bruised. I have even had my right leg broken just above the ankle in two places training hard, so no, we don't always go full bore. I'm not trying to claimto be something I'm not either. I'm just an average guy, who had/has a love of the martial arts, as well as firearms and tried to combine them whenever possible.
CDRogers- You are obviously for real. Most people outside of the "arts" would not know what tai-otoshi is. or osoto-gari
. Or Kiai, for that matter. Your last post was very well stated in my opinion. Kiai, for anyone interested is simply the word yell in japanese. If done correctly it serves several purposes, one of which has already been stated by CDRogers, and is an extremely useful tool in weapon retention, as well as disarm techniques.dbl brl daryl- I applaud your determination to fight back as forcefully as possible. Most people will say that, but will hesitate when attacked violently and without warning. That's why constant training and mental preparation are so important, as well as drilling in every technique you can find, even if some of it is lame.
armsmaster270
New member
You never let the BG close enough to touch you or your weapon if you do you shouldn't be carrying.. Carry mace or something that won't kill you when it is turned on you
12GaugeShuggoth
New member
Unfortunately that's not always possible. When someone paints you as a target, they aren't always going to walk up and let you know their intentions. Stating that you'll never allow a BG to close the distance on you is foolish at best, dangerously over confident at worst. If it were really that simple then we wouldn't need to carry weapons, since we'd be able to simply avoid the BG before the conflict starts. Just my .02
Muscle memory can be a good thing.
This can be from either, or both, arms training or "empty handed" training.
What is truly important with either is the mindset included with the training.
Weapons should truly be a "last resort" option for the majority of folks who carry them.
Likewise "empty handed" training should also be a "last resort" option, again for the majority of folks.
Out of 100 fights, you win the 100 that you do not engage in.
But, if need be and the line is crossed and life or limb is threatened, the goal is to end the threat right now.
And I for one continue to pray to know if and when that line is crossed; and may you are yours never have it crossed for you.
This can be from either, or both, arms training or "empty handed" training.
What is truly important with either is the mindset included with the training.
Weapons should truly be a "last resort" option for the majority of folks who carry them.
Likewise "empty handed" training should also be a "last resort" option, again for the majority of folks.
Out of 100 fights, you win the 100 that you do not engage in.
But, if need be and the line is crossed and life or limb is threatened, the goal is to end the threat right now.
And I for one continue to pray to know if and when that line is crossed; and may you are yours never have it crossed for you.
JollyRoger
New member
Not to dive into the fray about whether a CCW would shoot or hesitate, but even for the most skilled individual, reaction time is still going to be about a half a second. If you're in close, that's a lot of time for a bad guy to be on you.
Primary defense here is to use a bladed stance for a potential bad guy, the so called interview stance. This involves keeping your weak side forward, strong side back (assuming a strong-side hip carry.) If you get rushed, you can use your weak arm to block or hold off the bad guy for the time it takes to draw and fire, usually executing a speed rock draw where the gun is fired as soon as it clears the holster (one handed) - target is at contact range. It's simple, and it works even if the bad guy comes down on top of you, as you only need time and space to clear leather and fire.
The bladed stance works very well with a weaver or modified weaver stance, too.
I recommend that if you confront someone with your pistol, do not stick it out in front of you in Hollywood fashion. Keep it tucked in at your side with the barrel just ahead of your torso. Keep it slightly away from your body. A revolver ejects hot gasses and a semi-auto needs room to cycle the slide. That is one reason why you keep it ahead of your torso and out a little. You can hold it at belt level, or up higher, but keep the barrel just ahead of your torso.
If the aggressor comes at you and you feel compelled to fire, do not hesitate. The position of your pistol will allow you to take a step back if necessary and turn slightly. Just be sure to keep your weak hand back, or if you need to fend off the aggressor, keep it up high so you will not shoot yourself. There will be a moment in which you realize you should fire. That is when you shoot. If you stop to think and wonder you will lose that tactical advantage that you get for one second.
To become proficient at this maneuver, you should practice it in dry fire drills and at a range with live rounds. Remember to look where you want to rounds to go. If you drill enough, you will find them going where you are looking.
Above all, do not poke the pistol out into the aggressor's reach, where he can wrench it from your grasp. There are people out there, even some who responded to your post, who can do so.
If the aggressor comes at you and you feel compelled to fire, do not hesitate. The position of your pistol will allow you to take a step back if necessary and turn slightly. Just be sure to keep your weak hand back, or if you need to fend off the aggressor, keep it up high so you will not shoot yourself. There will be a moment in which you realize you should fire. That is when you shoot. If you stop to think and wonder you will lose that tactical advantage that you get for one second.
To become proficient at this maneuver, you should practice it in dry fire drills and at a range with live rounds. Remember to look where you want to rounds to go. If you drill enough, you will find them going where you are looking.
Above all, do not poke the pistol out into the aggressor's reach, where he can wrench it from your grasp. There are people out there, even some who responded to your post, who can do so.
thanks guys, along those lines...this is what i have been trying to get more practiced at recently(when i can get to the range early enough for it to be empty) that seems to mirror the last few posts. starting at 4.00 minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc&feature=PlayList&p=69F84CC6B6F56317&playnext=1&index=4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc&feature=PlayList&p=69F84CC6B6F56317&playnext=1&index=4
That's an interesting video, but I would not do that exact drill with a revolver. Remember that any kind of aggression directed at your antagonists face will get him to bring his hands up to ward it off, allowing you to draw with much less chance of him grabbing your weapon or drawing hand. The same principals apply when trying to retain your gun if he does grab for it. Something else to remember, if he does get ahold of your gun or gun hand, and is trying to wrench it away from you, you have to strike fast to effective areas on the face, then get your weak hand on the gun in a two fisted hold. You may take blows to the face, but if you give up your gun you will be dead. If it does become a struggle for posession of the gun, keep your opponent off balance by twisting and turning, changing directions quickly and sharply, working on the weakest part of his grip-the open side between his fingers and thumb. While doing all this you need to keep striking with your head, feet, elbows and anything else you can move, like a sharp knee to the outside of the thigh, at a point just about exactly where your fingertips would be if you held your arm down your side with fingers extended. The moment you get free from your attacker with your gun, back up several steps, never crossing your legs behind you. If you have an auto, rack the slide fully, whether or not the gun has been fired. During a struggle, the slide may have been moved enough to tie up the firing mechanism. Also slam the magazine bottom, to be sure it is seated. Some guns have a magazine disconnect that may render the gun inoperable with the mag only a 1/4" out of position. I have one that does exactly that, and it would be very likely during a struggle that the magazine release would be hit. The list goes on.....
Remember that any kind of aggression directed at your antagonists face will get him to bring his hands up to ward it off, allowing you to draw with much less chance of him grabbing your weapon or drawing hand. The same principals apply when trying to retain your gun if he does grab for it. Something else to remember, if he does get ahold of your gun or gun hand, and is trying to wrench it away from you, you have to strike fast to effective areas on the face, then get your weak hand on the gun in a two fisted hold. You may take blows to the face, but if you give up your gun you will be dead. If it does become a struggle for posession of the gun, keep your opponent off balance by twisting and turning, changing directions quickly and sharply, working on the weakest part of his grip-the open side between his fingers and thumb. While doing all this you need to keep striking with your head, feet, elbows and anything else you can move, like a sharp knee to the outside of the thigh, at a point just about exactly where your fingertips would be if you held your arm down your side with fingers extended. The moment you get free from your attacker with your gun, back up several steps, never crossing your legs behind you. If you have an auto, rack the slide fully, whether or not the gun has been fired. During a struggle, the slide may have been moved enough to tie up the firing mechanism. Also slam the magazine bottom, to be sure it is seated. Some guns have a magazine disconnect that may render the gun inoperable with the mag only a 1/4" out of position. I have one that does exactly that, and it would be very likely during a struggle that the magazine release would be hit. The list goes on.....