When someone is struggling with you...

C

CDRogers

Inactive
Just curious if anyone has ever thought about defending himself when the BG is trying to take your gun away from you....

I've been a follower of this forum for years, but I've never seen a thread in which this scenario is discussed. And yet, I think it is very likely that some of us, either for humanitarian reasons or for fear of litigation, will HESITATE on the trigger pull---and then the BG is upon us!

I've studied martial arts (I'm a black belt in JuJitsu) for 30 years. In all that time, we've practiced taking the gun away from the BG, assuming we were close enough to try. NEVER have we practiced the reverse: the BG trying to take the gun away from US---because we have either hesitated, or fired into his shoulder, etc.

I think this scenario is more likely than not. If a BG grapples with us, we cannot let go of our gun. I think I have figured out a few excellent defenses we can use, while retaining our gun. I'm going to start practicing these techniques from now on.

Perhaps many of you will say you'll have no problem blasting the BG, if the circumstances warrant it. But I wonder if that's true. Most of us don't want to kill anybody, not really; or be judged by a jury for doing so. Many of us would think twice before pulling the trigger, which means THE BG CAN BE ON TOP OF US IN AN INSTANT.

Have you thought that through? Do you know what to do when someone grabs your gun?

I have suggestions for you, if you're interested. My suggestions, like my opinons, are free. :)

Dan
 
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No hesitation from me. They can try to sort that out afterwards, but I'm going to stay alive, thank you very much.

I thought about it for some time before getting my liscense. That said, retention techniques are always welcome, but not for the reason of hesitation.
 
Most would hesitate. when i hear people say they would not most of the time they are talking out the wrong end of the digestive tract. Unless you have been there and done that you cant say for sure. You can play weekend warrier at camp commando for Rambo wannabe's but untill you are faced with it and have done it thats a comment you cant make. So very many here talk a tough game but my bet would be 98% have never had to make the decision.
 
Perhaps many of you will say you'll have no problem blasting the BG, if the circumstances warrant it. But I wonder if that's true. Most of us don't want to kill anybody, not really; or be judged by a jury for doing so. Many of us would think twice before pulling the trigger, which means THE BG CAN BE ON TOP OF US IN AN INSTANT.
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My desire to live is LEAPS AND BOUNDS above all of my other desires


i would pull the trigger in an instant if i thought my life was in danger, and i wouldnt stop pulling it until i heard a click

perhaps the reason you havent heard this discussed heavily is because most of us would not hesitate..

perhaps you recognizing that you would surely hesitate is a good thing. perhaps recognizing your "humanitarian" values is also a good thing... both of these are very good indications that YOU as an individual should not carry a firearm.
For a person with a mindset like yours to carry a weapon would almost surely make the situation more dangerous for everyone involved.... except the criminal


So very many here talk a tough game but my bet would be 98% have never had to make the decision.
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there is no decision to be made
if i'm scared for my life, there is nothing on the other end of the equation to think about.
there is nothing... and i mean nothing... that i would hesitate to save my life for....
 
I too have been in the martial arts for a long time, and both my wife and I practice retention techniques, as well as disarm techniques. I hate to take sides, so I'll simply say that I have made my mind up to shoot, but I am also aware that I have to be aware of my surroundings, and that I may hesitate to shoot for fear of hitting an innocent bystander. Before anyone starts in with the- "You should practice enough to be able to hit your target" B.S., the fact is, if you are jumped and have to draw quickly and ward off an attack at the same time, you can't be shooting all over the place while struggling to keep your weapon. In that situation you should have some basic training in what to do to retain your gun. I'd be willing to bet that if most of the people who carry came in to my dojo, or any dojo for that matter, and tried retaining their weapon during practice drills, they would be suprised at how easily they can lose their weapon. Retention isn't something that can be taught over the internet. You need to go somewhere and learn and then practice regularly. One reason I like our martial arts system is that we train in several art forms, so we learn attacking as well as defending, standing and on the ground. While I don't think everyone has to go and get a blackbelt, going somewhere and getting instruction on retention techniques is as important as learning to shoot properly under stress and from different positions. It should be required to get a carry permit, in my opinion. It wouldn't have to be too detailed, but at least give some idea as to what to do. Think about it, if a perp gets your gun away from you, you might end up dead as well as anyone nearby. We all have a responsibility to keep control of our weapon at all times. Just something to think about.:)
 
I'd be willing to bet that if most of the people who carry came in to my dojo, or any dojo for that matter, and tried retaining their weapon during practice drills, they would be suprised at how easily they can lose their weapon.
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i've seen these drills... OH MY GOD what a joke


no matter how much you practice taking a chunk of plastic out of someones hand in the dojo, it doesnt equate into real-world events... it just doesnt


i've seen where dojos actually stepped up and used air softs or paintball replicas , this is where the truth is usually told.

the people WILL NOT react like in your training, the gun will go off, problems and embarrassment will ensue.

it's great for entertainment though......
 
I invite you to go and try. It's not the same as being on the street because in a school you aren't trying to hurt your training partners. We actually use guns that fire blanks specially designed for police and martial arts training. As for it being a joke, maybe to you, but sitting on your butt and not trying to learn anything is the mark of someone that is either arrogant, or foolish, or both. Knocking those who try to improve their chances is easy when your some anonymous person sitting across the country. Go into a school that practices disarm and retention techniques and announce that they are a joke, then actually show them why. Don't talk with your keyboard, talk with actions. The old saying-"Actions speak louder than words" is relevent here.;)
If you have something to teach me, I am more than willing to learn. You can never get enough training. I try to learn something new every day, and plan to keep that philosophy 'till the day I die. If I get killed on the street, at least I'll know I did everything I could to prepare.
 
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The danger of being disarmed is very real. Once the BG makes hand contact with your weapon (& if he has a *clue* what he is doing) the muzzle will be pointed away from him, your wrist will be broken & he WILL have your gun. All of that will happen is less time then it takes for the electrical signal to travel from your hand to your brain, telling you that you need to struggle to retain your weapon (also the same amount of time that it takes for a "pull the trigger" signal to travel from your brain to your hand).

If one thinks that there is no situation that could cause a moment's hesitation in pulling the trigger, I submit that THEY are the ones who should not be carrying a gun.

It's so easy to think otherwise from an armchair though ;)

Backing up should be an instinctual part of the draw stroke, though it is rarely taught & even when it is, not nearly enough emphasis is placed on it.
 
I invite you to go and try.
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perhaps it wasnt evident in my first post.
been there, done that... a few times at a few different places


always with the same results... it backfires horribly, then the instructor spends the rest of the class/session trying to explain that it doesnt matter if it works here or not, it's the fundamentals that will save your life.... though they never explain how the fundamentals will somehow work in real life situations, yet fail in a controlled and guided environment.

it's a good idea for a movie though

Mall Ninja 3: The Disarmerer
 
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Kinda funny, I have been thinking about this for a couple of days

when i hear people say they would not most of the time they are talking out the wrong end of the digestive tract. Unless you have been there and done that you cant say for sure.
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I agree completely.
both of these are very good indications that YOU as an individual should not carry a firearm.
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:barf:
Sorry, but this attitude makes me sick. Reminds me of the "I'm the only one in this room professional enough to handle this Glock foty"
It seems any time someone asks a question like that in the OP some will undoubtedly chime in with the obligatory "you shouldn't be carrying a gun".

For a civilian it's a pretty heavy decision (to shoot or not to shoot); cops seem to have a little more leeway as far as this is concerned.
I think most, if not all of us who decide to carry have decided that we would indeed be willing to defend ourselves using lethal force.
The hesitation will come from having to make the split second decision as to whether or not your life is truly in danger. Things can happen really fast and from really close. You may go from no threat to a fight for your life in one second.
If you are going to respond with deadly force you need to be sure it is warranted. You may not have a lot of time to make that decision, and a half of a second too long could be enough to get you in serious trouble.

i've seen these drills... OH MY GOD what a joke
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I also think these drills and demonstrations are ridiculous - unless you are attacked by Frankenstein or someone else with really slow reflexes and limited range of motion in their extremities. I don't know how to work on weapon retention, as I feel should involve full force blows to the face or throat to be effective and I don't know anyone who will let me break their nose or crush their trachea to practice this.
I'm not saying there aren't good techniques, just that all the ones I've seen tend to be defending against someone who is basically a prop and does not really violently attack or attempt to disarm. I've not seen any that look like what a real life situation would look like.
On that note I have actually been thinking about looking into some local schools to see if they offer any training geared toward this.

I have suggestions for you, if you're interested. My suggestions, like my opinons, are free.
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I would love to hear some; what better place than here?
 
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For a civilian it's a pretty heavy decision (to shoot or not to shoot); cops seem to have a little more leeway as far as this is concerned.
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i'd love to hear an explanation for this


are you talking legality?

if you're thinking about its legality, then your life obviously wasnt really in danger.

if my life is in danger, to hell with legality... i'll be alive to deal with that later
 
My decision is made, and actually was made a long time before I decided to pursue carrrying. In a self defense situation, I will not hesitate. If BG is close enough to take my gun, I wont be worrying about what innocent I may harm. That's not in the equation, at that point Im in a fight for my life and the BG is in a fight for his. I will fire. I will not hesitate. I have had to protect myself before. Next time I will be better prepared and I will NOT hesitate.
 
If you carry a weapon then you must have a plan for someone trying to take it from you. There are many schools that can teach you weapon retention and ground fighting. Some are better than others but the time for figure'n out what you are going to do is not when it happens. You need to have a plan. You cant plan for everything but you can plan for what is likely.

Alot of people will carry a folding-knfie on their weak side so that in the event their strong arm is locked-down retaining the ccw, they have a option for another defensive weapon.
 
i'd love to hear an explanation for this
if you're thinking about its legality, then your life obviously wasnt really in danger.
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We have all seen questionable police shootings; I can think of few that resulted in officers going to prison. I think in police shootings the bar is a little lower as far as proving it was a good shoot. If you, as a civilian, ever shoot someone in self defense, rest assured the burden of proof will be on you, not the state.
Google officer cleared in shooting and read a few, it wont take long to come across some teenager "holding a screwdriver" getting shot. If you shoot some kid holding a cell phone or screwdriver you will most likely go to jail for a long time.
That is all beside the point.
if my life is in danger, to hell with legality... i'll be alive to deal with that later
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The point of my post was you need to be absolutely sure your life is in danger. If not, chances are you will be dealing with some problems you do not want later.
You may not have much time to realize you are really in danger. The hesitation while deciding if you are or not could be enough to get you in a struggle for your weapon.

I assume from your posts you will know without a doubt if your life is in danger before any aggressive move has been made and your attacker is more than ten feet or so away from you, correct? (ESP??)
 
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"The point of my post was you need to be absolutely sure your life is in danger. If not, chances are you will be dealing with some problems you do not want later."





Well Im just wondering if it will take one of the BG's hands around my throat and the other on my gun before I will be absolutely sure my life is in danger.

You do what you gotta do.

My decision is already made.
 
dbl brl daryl said:
I also think these drills and demonstrations are ridiculous - unless you are attacked by Frankenstein or someone else with really slow reflexes and limited range of motion in their extremities. I don't know how to work on weapon retention, as I feel should involve full force blows to the face or throat to be effective and I don't know anyone who will let me break their nose or crush their trachea to practice this.
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That is exactly what I stated above, we don't train to hurt our fellow students, but we do the moves as fast as possible without injuring each other. While your hands are busy trying to break the BG's trachea or nose, his will be doing the same thing to yours. You may not even land anything in the struggle. If you're so confident in your ability to injure or kill someone with your hands, why carry a gun? Like I said earlier, it's better to train as best as possible, than to come on here and spout off about something you obviously know little about. ANY training is better than no training. If it's so rediculous to try to prepare for a disarm, then by the same token it's stupid to practice firing your gun. I've never been to a range where someone let me shoot at them while they were shooting at me. Target practice and shooting drills all lack the element of danger that a real life street attack does. Anyone who would argue the validity of training as much as possible for everything they can, the best that they can, is either foolish or so proud, that they themselves are more likely to become a victim on the street.
MrNiceGuy said:
Quote:
I invite you to go and try.

perhaps it wasnt evident in my first post.
been there, done that... a few times at a few different places


always with the same results... it backfires horribly, then the instructor spends the rest of the class/session trying to explain that it doesnt matter if it works here or not, it's the fundamentals that will save your life.... though they never explain how the fundamentals will somehow work in real life situations, yet fail in a controlled and guided environment.

it's a good idea for a movie though
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I can't tell you the number of people I've met, who claimed to have taken some form of martial art, or some retention training somewhere. Most if not all who denegrate it are out of shape and can't keep up with what is going on, or decide that they know better than someone who's been doing it for along time. Some just don't stick around long enough to see the whole training program. I don't know any of you guys and don't know if you fit in this category or not, but I question anyone who would sit in their chair typing on a keyboard about what it takes or doesn't take to servive an attack. In my experience, most who knock any form of martial art training, whether it's hand to hand, or weapon disarm/retention, are jealous that they themselves, didn't have the drive to go out and spend the countless hours to learn and improve themselves. Most all police departments train in hand to hand and ground fighting, as well as weapons retention. Are they rediculous? I don't think so, and I suspect that none of you do either. I do suspect that you guys have taken a stance, and now feel the need to stand by it, even though you may realize that it's the wrong stance.;) Pride is a dangerous thing.
 
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