"What's Your Life Worth?" Give me a break!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave McC:
There's trash guns and inexpensive guns, but not all inexpensive guns are trash and not all trash guns are cheap.[/quote]

YES! Thank you. Finally, someone else realizes what others of us have been trying to point out.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Hey "J", a.k.a. Captain Park. Looks like you have managed to create another controversial thread =). Good to see you on the board again. I go with the value approach. This is the approach I use with nearly all of my consumer decissions. GOOD VALUE = Quality + Reasonable Cost. I don't own any Kimbers, H&Ks, Baers, Sigs or Wilsons. While they represent Quality they do not have a reasonable cost. Nor do I own any Ravens, Jennings or Lorcins. These guns have reasonable cost but very poor quality. I DO own a Ruger, a Makarov, a S&W, and a Kel-Tec. These pieces have quality and a reasonable cost, therefore they have good VALUE.
 
>>I don't own any Kimbers, H&Ks, Baers, Sigs or Wilsons. While they represent Quality they do not have a reasonable cost. <<

They sure do, IMHO. Maybe not Baers or Wilsons, but you can get a SIG P239 for around $500. You can get a Kimber Classic Custom for just over $600. That is not unreasonable.
 
I'm a school teacher and expecting our first child. Obviously money is tight - between student loans, mortgage payments etc... that doesn't leave much for gun purchases. I have guns because I enjoy collecting them and recreational shooting. I don't at this time feel the need to carry CCW or have one loaded in my nightstand. I feel really fortunate to live in a rural area with good neighbors. I have been in parts of the country like Gary Indiana where I would definitely want a gun in the house or with me for that matter. If I were to need a CCW piece I would use one of the guns that I already have either my Makarov ($120) or my Ruger Security Six .357 4" barrel ($180 + tax) both are very reliable. I'm cheap, but I know enough about guns to get a good one for under $200 if I needed to. I also have a Ruger MKII Govt. Comp model that I paid over $350 for then added a scope. That is a major investment for me, but I wanted a really accurate .22 - sometimes you do have to spend a little to get what you want. If all you want is a reliable durable gun here is my short list of some to look for:

Makarov (any flavor) ~$150
FEG High Power Copy ~$199
Ruger Revolvers new or used ~$180 - $250
S&W Police Trade ins ~$200
Taurus Revolvers ~$150 - $250
Ruger Semi-Autos new or used ~$250 and up
Rossi revolvers (no personal experience, but have heard they are OK and they are cheap used) ~$100
Pheonix Arms .22 ~$80 to $100 (it is a .22 but they are steel and I have heard good things about them for the money)

Rugers are hard to beat in the used market since they are built like tanks. My Security-Six is a really old one with the serial number 150-xxxx I think it was made in the early 70's. - it has some bluing wear but the rifling is sharp and it shoots great! The trigger is also really smooth, that is one advantage to buying a 25 year old gun, someone else has already broken it in for you.

There is a threshold below which you are looking at Jennings, Bryco and the like. I did at one time own a Jennings J-22 and it was actually reliable if I kept it clean and well oiled. The zinc frames won't hold up to thousands of rounds but they will function for a while. Many people have guns for home defense, but will never actually shoot them much if at all.

For in home use a cheap shotgun would work just fine too. As a deterrent even a single-shot 12-guage looks evil from the wrong end. They are only $75 at Bi-Mart for an H&R.

So many cheap guns and still not enough money!

- Makarov

[This message has been edited by makarov (edited July 22, 2000).]
 
AUG,

Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you judge. Getting another job sounds reasonable if you're single. If you're single with kids that's a whole other problem. Sometimes child are costs more than what you would make with another job.

ArmySon,

I commend your family for its achievements. What was the educational level of your parents before coming to the US? Did your father or mother have experience running a business? Did they have money management skills? I ask this not to flame, but some of the working poor are just that, poor workers. They've gotten the short end of a bad public education system, barely literate, no money management skills and with minimum wage it's tough to get ahead. I'm not talking about whinners, I'm talking about hard working people that are on very tight budgets. There are lots of folks like this.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
ArmySon: that's an immigrant success story I like to hear. I commend your parents for their sacrifice. I hope that in their old age you can spend the time with them you didn't as a child.

I don't think it's elitist to enjoy fine firearms, or fine anything, if you truly anjoy it/them and not just for the status of ownership (snobbery). I wish EVERYONE to be wealthy (but first, happiness and health), or at least be able to afford the nice things they want for themselves and their families. Why not?

The important thing for me to remember is there are many people who are poor and disadvantaged, and to be generous of spirit towards them.

I'm looking at being unemployed temporarily, and it has been a sobering lesson (and maybe a good one in the longterm) on the value or a dollar and a bargain. The biggest lessons i've learned the hard way: let some other fool take the initial depreciation (I love a good used bargain), and if you have to buy new, don't pay retail!
 
doubletap wiped clean

BTW... I own a Les Baer, but I got it used/like-new, with extra goodies ($200 worth), for a grand. That's a luxury I felt I could afford, since I was getting about a 40% discount. I love my Baer, and I LOVE a discount!

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited July 22, 2000).]
 
Money management skills? Business skills? Unfortunately, the answer is no. We did not immigrate to the US out of luxury. We fled Vietnam due to political reasons.

They came here without ANY knowledge of the way the United States operates. They did not understand forms for banks, work applications, etc. How did they overcome this? They worked hard at educating themselves. Sorry but after experiencing what my parents went through (I am the oldest), I have very little pity for anybody that claims to be "extremely poor". If they are that poor, they have no business sitting in front of a computer terminal and surfing. They should spend that free time educating themselves or working. My mom and pop did. No reason they cannot.

Ever sort through garbage to find your next meal? Ever beg people for milk to feed your baby? My parents did just that while we were in a refugee camp in Malaysia. My mother begged for milk from the soldiers just to feed my little brother. Now he's 21 years old and has a calcium deficiency. He is 5'8" 107.

Do I know what poor is? Hell yes.


[This message has been edited by ArmySon (edited July 22, 2000).]
 
One last thing, in Vietnam, my grandparents were very wealthy. They owned an entire harbor. My parents would work on the rice fields and also watch my grandparents store on occasion. I was a spoiled little sh!t @ 4 years old. It changed FAST.
 
I applaud the success of people through hard times. I am lucky that my grandparents made it through such stuff that I can live here.

But the lack of compassion by some on this list suggests moral bankruptcy to me.

There are folk who because of illness and circumstance are hard pressed to work a minimum wage job for 20 hours a week.

They may not have the ability to do more.

Watch old Scrooge again at Christmas and look in the mirror.
 
Yes, the physically disabled need protection too, and govt. assistance doesn't nearly go far enought to allow that. Even if they can work, they usually have a crappy job.

On another note, all my trash guns say "Colt."
 
I'm sorry that I don't feel pity for someone because they are poor. Here are a few reasons why:

1-I live in the south, the poorest region in the country, and there are job openings in every single town within 250 miles of here. Yet we still have people that are "disabled" or don't like certain jobs so they don't work.

2-I heard someone say that the public education system was in part responsible for people being poor, bullcrap! 99% percent of people are self educated anyway.

3-Un-qualified people should not expect certain jobs. If one has no skills or training they should not expect to get a job that pays well. And NO it is not the governments responsibility to train these people.

4-I have been poor and when I was I did without and worked extra to make ends meet. I never expected anybody to help me.

5-people should not have kids if they are not financially stable. Sometimes unexpected things can happen such as ArmySon's parents but this happens probably to less than 1% of people that are poor.

This thread was started talking about cheap reliable guns. Somehow it turned in to a liberal'ish "you should feel sorry for the poor" type of things. Sorry to break it to ya guys but I stand by everything I've said and agree with ArmySon's statements and I don't feel one bit guilty for doing so.

I deal with poor people in my line of work as much or more than anyone here so I am qualified to make these statements.
 
What do you think your life is worth? How about exactly the same as the dollar amount of the life insurance policy you carry?

Jim
 
Then, I uh, guess I shouldn't have put $1 billion?!?

JP

P.S. Man, you guys get all worked up about stuff!

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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
 
ArmySon,

Look at what you wrote: "One last thing, in Vietnam, my grandparents were very wealthy. They owned an entire harbor. My parents would work on the rice fields and also watch my grandparents store on occasion."

I don't doubt the intense suffering your family underwent, and it's a testament to their courage how far they got in the US. Don't you think that money management is learned when you come from a wealthy family? They worked in a family store. I've met folks with family stores with more business sense than MBAs. The point isn't to demean what you and your parents have done, but rather to show that those skills are essential if someone's to get ahead.

I taught in a poor depressed neighborhood. The majority of the folks I met swung two jobs, worked hard for minimum wage and didn't have health care. They were getting by with very little. So yes, I do have sympathy for the poor.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Well, this is interesting. I think I might have had a hand in starting this. Since it was my question from a few months ago that I think started this thread, why don't we look at the facts, OK? Aug, ArmySon, pay attention. I respect you both but you're not addressing the point of the thread, just rambling about how much poor people disappoint you.

1. I was not short of money because I was lazy. I was short of money because with 2 jobs, 2 scholarships and help from my parents I was still just barely squeaking by in my senior year of college. Educate yourself? That's exactly what I was doing, at great expense in sweat and money.

2. I did not ask about "junk guns" like Bryco or Jennings. But I still say if that's all someone can afford (and for a LOT of people, it is) then that's the way life goes, and for TFLers to go around implying that those people are somehow stupid or simply don't care enough about themselves or their families if they don't have $300 to shell out this week is pretty low. When dad had a gun shop, he sold Lorcin and Jennings. Say what you want, but people need some way to defend themselves. Sure, they might have been better off with revolvers or shotguns, but that's their choice.

3. I had internet access because it was included in the huge sum of money it cost to attend Monmouth College. I could not have afforded access on my own, but I saw no reason to waste the opportunity since I had to pay for it either way. I did use my own computer, a five-year-old gift from my parents. It had a 75-mhz Pentium I and 24 megs of RAM.

4. Not everyone can make the kind of money some of you do regardless of how well they work or how much they produce. I am a schoolteacher. The money for my salary comes from the largesse of taxpayers and is simply set. If I double the SAT scores next year, I won't see one extra dime. I worked my butt off at Hardee's all summer and this year I'll be teaching two subjects and coaching two sports--am I working hard enough to deserve self-defense yet?
This doesn't mean that I begrudge y'all your money, only that I'm tired of hearing this elitist line that only people who spend X dollars really care about their safety--as if you can buy victory.
 
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