"What's Your Life Worth?" Give me a break!

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A point about the "A good gun isn't *that* much more expensive" argument.

Have any of you who are taking that tack been unemployed (not on unemployment) for two years and had to sell plasma twice a week to survive?

I have.

And I'll tell you what, when you're in a situation like that, an extra *$5* is impossible, let alone $100-$200.

Think about what you're saying. The poor are exactly that: poor. Their lives aren't worth any less simply because they can't afford a Bersa or Sigma or some other mid-range pistol.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AUG:
Maybe there is such a gun out there but I can't think of it. Please list any gun sold for <$300 NIB that is reliable, has a good trigger, good sights, and is durable. DO NOT INCLUDE USED GUNS IN THIS REQUEST. The price of used guns has to many varibles to be considered.[/quote]

How about a Ruger P95, which I have seen NIB for as little as $285 at gun shows? I paid $299 for mine, guess I didn't shop enough. It may not be the Mercedes-Benz of pistols, but at 25 feet I can put 5 shots into a group I can cover with the palm of my hand. It's rated for +P+ (durability, yes) and with a hi-cap full of Gold Dots will handle anything I might encounter short of a riot.

I concur with the folks who pointed out the diminishing returns factor. It's true of most manufactured products. I can tell the difference between a $100 stereo and a $1000 stereo. I can tell the difference between a $1000 stereo and a $5000 stereo, but it's less pronounced. Go above that and I can't hear enough difference to justify the money.

Ditto firearms. A basic 1911 clone can be had for $600 or so. Go to Les Baer or Wilson Combat and you can spend three times that. OK, you're getting a more refined machine, probably more accurate and will last longer, but the $600 gun will do the job. Most defensive handguns never get shot enough to wear them out, and as long as you can pull a 3 or 4 inch group at 25 feet, it's accurate enough for defense.

If all a guy can afford is $100 for a Rossi .38, that's still better than no gun at all. First rule of gunfighting is "have a gun". One of my big worries about the attempts to ban low-cost guns aka "Saturday Night Specials" is their classist/racist implications. They would effectively price self-defense out of the range of segments of society that need it badly -- an honest person living in the urban jungle is more at risk than an honest person living in The Hills of Heather Meadows.
 
It's tough for me to buy the "I'm poorer then dirt" argument when I read it online. Why? They're using a computer aren't they?
 
AUG, I bought my FEG HP clone for $249 NIB. Like Ledbetter says, its proven very reliable and very accurate. Nice big sights and nice trigger (see below). BTW those FEG's are now on sale at my local shop for $199...

Ledbetter, (and AUG if you choose to go this way) my FEG trigger improved immensely with a simple tip I discovered accidentally. I bought a well-used Browning mag, and with that in the gun, the trigger was sweet. I discovered that the area of the mag which the mag safety rubs against had been polished, either by wear or on purpose. So I got out the old Dremel and polished that area on my other mags. And now my FEG has a pretty nice trigger.

My bro. in law, who is FBI and very proud of his pistol skills, was in town last week. He and I went to my favorite indoor range and had an impromptu competition. He was shooting Glock .40. We both agreed I matched him in all drills. So what makes my low-cost pistol any less trustworthy than his?
 
I guess for what its worth I'm going to jump in here with my thoughts. I could afford to go out and buy the $1500 Fabname Special,but I won't. I see no need to own something that someone has fancied up and put "state of the art" components in and then inflated the price two fold. When I can accomplish the same with an off the shelf XYZ pistol. That is of course for my level of shooting. As far as those of you that shoot Competition you may have use and feel the the Fabgun is the one thats needed. This is why they make Vanilla and Chocolate. I buy used and I buy new all depends on what I'm looking for at the time.I as any shopper try to make or get the best deal. As far as self defense goes I will trust my life to any weapon that now sits in my gun safe. Regardless to scientific study it only should take one well placed shot to drop a BG. If you practice with what you have whether you have the XYZ shelf gun or the Fabname Pistola Special you and with gods grace should be able to make that shot.
As far as the poor goes they have to buy what they can afford and if they are able to only afford a Jennings so be it. Thats what they can afford and they should be allowed the priviledge to be able to defend themselves. BG's don't care what for weapon they are using against you,they are just using what they have stolen or aqquired otherwise. If I was to be in a situation and didn't have what I owned or what I was use to I would take whatever was available and try to make good use of it.
I'm not a Church going person and I'm not religious, But I do believe that God has the final say in all matters and when your ticket is punched.... Well sorry times up.
These are just my thoughts, Not to Offend or Flame ;)
Happy Shooting :)

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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous

[This message has been edited by loknload (edited July 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by loknload (edited July 21, 2000).]
 
Ledbetter, I feel bad posting this after we have been so pleasant to each other. The FEG you cited:

"I have an FEG P9 High Power clone that fires any 9mm cartridge every time so far. Single and double action trigger sucks for target shooting, but I figure I can muster the strength to pull it if I have to. Yes, I'd rather have my CZ or my Colt or my _&_ with me, but I wouldn't feel much, if any, safer."

Your pistol is closer to a _&_ semiautomatic pistol than a High-Power (HP.) C&S makes a double action conversion kit for a HP but all HPs are single actions.

Try the FEG High-Power clone and your opinion of this pistol may change. I know mine did.

The Feg HP is a good cheap pistol.

Regards,

Richard
 
Coinneach,

How much plasma do you have to sell to maintain internet connectivity?

For God's sake, we can create just about ANY situation as an argument either for or against the purchase of a cheap gun.

Unwed mother with 7 kids all to different fathers, with all fathers threatening to kill her. She's on public assistance, receiving WIC and Foodstamps.

How many milk vouchers and packs of Newport Lights does she have to trade to get a Bryco from the neighborhood crack/firearms dealer?

Obviously someone who is in this situation is NOT going to be able to afford much of a gun. That's fine. That's life. You get what your budget can allow.

But should that be a blaket assessment that someone should purchase a cheap gun even if they can afford something that is both a little more expensive and a little more reliable?

That is the overriding point here. That someone with the means to do so should not be drawn to the cheapest Raven, Bryco, Jennings, or HiPoint just because it's cheap!

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Thanks, Eric. The question remains, why are all these folks IGNORING revolvers, considering the many good,reliable ones out there for way less than most crappy autos?
 
Richard,

Hey, it's cool, we're on the same side in this debate. Thanks for the info re: the P9. It sure looks like an HP and even has the recoil spring guide rod locking into the base of the barrel. Theonly thing bad about it is the trigger; maybe I'll try Dave R.'s trigger improvement technique.

Regards to all,

Ledbetter
 
Any of you guys ever hear of a library? They've got these things called public terminals where people without computers can connect to boards like this.

Just spoke to a divorced mother with two children. Her ex-husband has threatened her several times and she has restraining orders against him. Her dad gave her an old SW with a 6 barrel. She had to lug it around. She saved for a year to get something smaller. Today she bought a bargain priced Bulgie Mak. A mutual friend is taking her to the range, he's buying the ammo and giving her some for carry. I admire people like her. Working poor for whom $5 is a big deal. Let's not forget all the economically challenged people. The 2nd Amendment applies to all Americans, poor or middle class or rich.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Dave McC...

"No one ever won the Indy in a Corvair..."

No one ever won the Indy in ANY street-legal car, either.

An Indy car has about as much in common with a street car as a high-end race gun for IPSC shooting has to a gun for daily defensive use.

What's appropriate for one often isn't appropriate for the other, especially when you start getting to the extremes.

Just as an Indy car isn't appropriate for street use (where do you put the groceries?), an IPSC race gun costing $3,000 certainly isn't the best choice for defensive use. Both CAN be used, but neither is the best choice.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Telecote,

Isn't the library where homeless people hangout? :)

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Tell ya what guys, there isn't a heck of a lot of correlation between having the ability to access this forum and having enough disposable income to buy a couple of pistols.

I teach Internet technologies in a very poor and rural Wyoming community. You would be suprised how many folks have an old beat up 486 with a 14.4 modem and a dial up with an ISP. They get the connection and computer for their kids and to feel like part of the "wired community". Indeed, my school has donated several computers to low income families for just such purposes.
 
Ron,
Bless you. You said a mouthful.

I have had the pleasure of shooting Fegs, Makarovs, and other well made affordable pistols over the years.

When I was in poorer economic times in my life the only firearm I had was a $129 Ruger .22 pistol and it served me well...even when my home was invaded.

I think all of you really need to forget the elitist attitudes you have towards firearms.

As mentioned above, to the working poor $5.00 can mean the difference between feeding a family and going without. I still remember when my meals were half a loaf of 25 cent bread and a 10 cent can of soup.

Never forget, this whole gun control game simply disarms the poor who need protection the most.

It amazes me that the NAACP supports this crap spewed by the Nazis in the Democratic party.

Apparently, there are quite a few elitist democrats in this forum as well.
 
Mike, I quit IPSC LONG ago when I saw a match won with a gun I wouldn't carry on the street. Maybe my race car analogy was faulty.
There's trash guns and inexpensive guns, but not all inexpensive guns are trash and not all trash guns are cheap. Buy me a beer sometime and I'll tell you a tale of the Colt OM from Hell....
 
I get what you mean, and I understand where you are comming from. You have obviously put a lot of thought into this topic.
 
All this posturing about guns ignores a basic fact.

About 95% of DGUs are deterrent with no guns fired.

There are no data that indicate that size of gun or quality is a significant factor in deterrent use.

So if you don't carry, you lose all that benefit. Of the remaining 5%, we have no good analyses if caliber has an effect on stopping a crime in progress. M&S don't speak to that really.

As far as poverty, I've worked with really poor folk and the difference between $100 and $250 is a week's wage and tough for folk with no discretionary income. All the poor don't waste their money.

If a $80 Davis gives deterrence, good for them.

Have someone make a good $80 gun. It can't be that hard.
 
If you are so poor that $5 is a big deal then you have no business on the internet. You need to spend the time you are now spending on the net working a another job. There are plenty of jobs all over this country and there is no reason for anyone to live in poverty. There is only one thing to do if you don't like being poor, work more. That little thing called work seems to scare alot of people or we wouldn't have sooo many people on govt.assist.
 
Maybe I came across a tad hard about the internet and being poor. You must understand though, my family and I came to the US 20 years ago. My mother and father didn't speak a lick of English and had 3 very young children. Yet, they never went on wellfare or used the government's handouts in any way. Instead they busted their ass in sweatshops until they got enough education and an opportunity to succeed. Now their 3 kids (myself- double engineering degree, sis- Ivy League MS Business, brother BS Mechanical Engineering) lives out their dream. I'm sorry, but if my parents can do succeed without knowing ANY English, 3 young kids, and NO STARTING MONEY, anybody can do it.

We hardly saw both of my parents when we were young. Instead of complaining about anything, they worked and worked and worked.

[This message has been edited by ArmySon (edited July 21, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ArmySon:
It's tough for me to buy the "I'm poorer then dirt" argument when I read it online. Why? They're using a computer aren't they?[/quote]

But who says it is their computer? For long time I had to use public access computers [free].
 
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