"What's Your Life Worth?" Give me a break!

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Cpt. John Park

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Dear Friends,

Another thread, which asked about inexpensive pistols, elicited the standard, "What is your life worth?" response. I have copied here the longwinded reply I submitted on the other thread.

Cheap handgunners unite!

(rant mode on)

If I knew I was going to be in a horrible high-speed head-on auto collision tomorrow, I suppose I would mortgage the farm, sell the kids for medical experiments, and whatever else was necessary to buy a Ford Expedition or something else huge and expensive and indestructible.

But although I might have a wreck sometime, I also have to live with the car I drive on a day-to-day basis. It has to fit in the garage, I have to buy gas for it, and I have to buy it in the first place.

So although my life is worth more than $12,000 to me, that is how much I paid for the car I actually drive. It is big enough to give me a good chance in a collision, yet small enough to fit in the garage and get decent gas mileage.

I use the same reasoning on guns. If I knew I were going to be in a shoot-out at work tomorrow, I might rack up $1,500 on the credit card for a Les Baer and spend $200 on a bunch of .45 to practice with tonight. But I don't know when or if the shootout will come, and I have other items in the budget that have already laid claim to the $1,700!

So although I am glad high-end pistols and ammo are available for those of you who choose them, I feel just fine in recommending to budget-minded friends some inexpensive but high-quality firearms for personal defense.

For a while, I used an old Taurus 85, from when they had that perfect walnut grip. It was easy to shoot well at 7 yards, easy to conceal, cheap to feed, and cost only $175 used.

I've now gone to a Makarov, which I love. It is slim, not too heavy, and has a grip just big enough for my hand. It cost me $170, including extra mags and a nice-looking surplus leather holster.

Incidentally, I also had a Kahr K9 in stainless, which shot great but showed rust at the mere sight of perspiration. I have been much happier with my two sub-$200 guns than with my one foray into the higher-priced models.

To conclude, my life is worth approximately $1 billion, but I can't spend it all on a pistol!

(rant mode off, flame suit and hood on!)

Respectfully,

JP

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Nehemiah 4:18 " ... and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked."
 
Point of it is, JP, that a perfectly reliable, GOOD quality, reliable gun can be had for NOT MUCH MORE than one of these low-cost POS guns.

That's the BIG difference here. We're not talking about about a $15,000 dollar difference for a car, we're talking about maybe $100 to $200 difference, or perhaps even less if you find a gun on the used market.

The REAL analogy in this situation for a car would be: would you willingly and knowlingly purchase a car that has absolutely horrible safety statistics if a car with better safety statistics were available for approximately the same price?



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
This is a silly argument made by people that mistake EQUIPMENT for SKILL.

For instance, knife collectors make this mistake sometimes. I see some guys that rave on about how important their life is and that a $500 knife is what they carry. As if it will cut better than a $3 knife???
Sorry, I have been collecting knives for many years, and you get diminishing returns, the more you spend. Knives get nicer and sometimes tougher with the higher price, but there is a point where you are paying for things other than cutting performance and toughness.

What these people mistake is expensive equipment for skill. Many of these people are in pathetic physical shape or untrained and they think that the more expensive knife will make up for that.

They need to spend more time learning to use their equpiment, and less time talking about it, and spending money on it.

I have been training in Kali (a knife related martial art) for many many years, and I guarantee that if I gave most of these people their $500 super-knife, and I got a $1 box-cutter, that I would rip them to shreds with the box-cutter.
Fancy equipment does not make up for skill, or lack thereof.

In a real street situation, you just need something that works. YOU will do the rest. This isn't target practice, this is point blank survival. And, the fancier guns are even known for not always working so well int he reliability department!
A more expensive gun is not necessarily the better gun in a serious situation, and it certainly will not make up for mind set and skill.

I am real happy with an old Glock 19 that I got for just over $200, on which I added inexpensive night sights and a full capacity mag.
Sure, it ain't expensive, but it goes "bang" every time I pull the trigger, and I am a damn good shot with it.

Use whatever you have, as long as it works. When it comes down to it, YOU are the one that makes the difference, not your equipment.

Some people woul be well served to spend their money on training and ammo over a fancy gun.

the stipulation being that you need a RELIABLE gun. The rest is just icing on the cake as far as equipment goes.

This is one reason I get along well with Glockers. They tend to buy a Glock and learn to shoot it. Then shoot it some more. They take a basic peice of equipment and master their own SKILL with it, rather than continually looking for the holy grail of guns and adding more doohickies to it to make it shoot better (rather than working on THEMSELVES to be better shooters.)

[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited July 20, 2000).]
 
I don't buy the car to gun analogy for the reasons stated by Mike Irwin. I also don't buy the knife analogy. A firearm is a machine and therefore sunject to all types of failures.

My life is worth the best equipment and training that I can afford. I save my money to get the best possible equipment for me.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
I do agree about the gun being a machine. BUT, there are some guns out there that you can get for very cheap that are VERY reliable (more reliable than an expensive gun).
As long as the gun is reliable, that is all that matters.

Ps- I got the old style (non FG/R) Glock 19 as a Police trade-in about a year ago before Glocks shot up in price (remember when Glocks were $409 brand NEW in the store just a year ago or so before all the lawsuits?).
It came with some other goodies that I sold to make up the cost. Like a holster, and other junk. Once I sold everything, the gun ended up costing me just over $200. Then I got Meprologhts added to it for about $60 and a NDF, used, full-capacity factory mag for $55. Of course, these are all prices from a year ago. Things have changed. The gun has given me outstanding and perfectly reliable service.
I like my Glock 30 a little better, but if I had to use the gun and got it confiscated (standard protocol for any shooting, even a justified one), I would worry a lot less if my old G19 got taken. That is something that people need to keep in mind. Also, it will be confiscated if used in a shooting. If you are an optimist, then you can choose to believe that you will get the gun back eventually, and in the same condition that you left it in.


A gun is just a tool, and it will not save you all by itself just because it costs more.




[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited July 20, 2000).]
 
On a sidenote, I looked up the thread and see that we are talking about junk guns, not inexpensive ones.

A Makarov is an example of what I am talking about, when I say a really inexpensive RELIABLE gun that will do the job if you will.
Or, a Kel Tec (mine has been %100 reliable), or a good used snubby etc.

I would never tell someone to buy a Jennings or whatever (these zinc guns that sell for way under $100). That does not even qualify as a gun. That is a piece of garbage.

It all depends on what you call "expensive" also. I consider a $400 Glock to be very inexpensive. I consider "expensive" to be $600 and up. All things are relative.
 
Capt.,

Mike's response was excellent and a good paraphrase of my post in the last thread. So your life is worth $1 billion? Hard to tell from reading your post. Your comment about "mortgaging the farm" or "selling the kids" was obviously in jest, but even so it is taking what others said WAY out of context. Nobody suggested you need to spend a ton of money for a reliable firearm, BUT there are some cheapies that just won't do.

Don't get me wrong, I like saving money as much as the next guy. We just need to use some common sense and not lose sight of our primary objective when purchasing defensive firearms...RELIABILITY.
 
many years ago i hunted with a guy that favored a used a single shot 16 gauge shotgun he had bought used for $50.00. i was shooting a Remington 700 ADL FS with a high end Leupold scope in 30-06. you all know the end of this story. almost every year he killed at least two more deer than i did. his superior knowledge of deer habits and woodsmanship proved more than a match for my superior technology. he told me he had never even wished for a gun that shot futher. he was also an avid bowhunter and he used the same stands switching to the shotgun and slugs after gun season opened.
my point is, CAN YOU HIT THE TARGET WITH WHAT YOU HAVE GOT? IS IT OF SUFFICENT CALIBER AND POWER TO DO THE JOB? IS IT 100% RELIABLE?
if all these answers are yes than what possible difference does the price make except to your ego. i own $1000.00+ pistols. i also own handguns that i have less than $250.00 in that i carry and am deadly with.

[This message has been edited by riddleofsteel (edited July 20, 2000).]
 
All greats posts here. True, reliability is the most crucial element. And also true that "expensive" is relative. On my budget anything above $300 is expensive. I don't rely on brands, I rely on what has worked for me.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
These are all VERY GOOD points.
This is in fact one of the best threads on TFL in the last little while... Good reading.

One thing I want to mention however...
Once you pick out the weapon that fits your hand and lets you get the most out of it - THE most important choice is your AMMUNITION.
 
"? What's my life worth ?"

Some days it is worth enough to practice at a rate of 10,000 rounds a year with each carry gun just to insure proficiency when needed. Even when I don't feel like it.

Other days it is worth enough to practice at the same rate just because I'm enjoyin it.

Used to do quite a bit o shootin but now have to pay for my components. Even at a nickle a round, it adds up.

Sam...my favorite 9mm pistol ctg is the 9X32R
 
Sure there are some guns that are cheap that are reliable BUT show me a cheap gun with a good trigger, good sights, and is durable and I will buy all of them I can find.


Maybe there is such a gun out there but I can't think of it. Please list any gun sold for <$300 NIB that is reliable, has a good trigger, good sights, and is durable. DO NOT INCLUDE USED GUNS IN THIS REQUEST. The price of used guns has to many varibles to be considered.

I understand that trigger and sights are subjective but I think the gun should be 9mmpara/38 spl or larger and if anyone tries to tell me that a Kel Tec has a good trigger I may laugh my a$$ off.
 
Our local sporting goods store has 8 police trade in Model 5906 Smith and Wessons for $350.00 each with two magazines. They also have several 586 Smith police trade in revolvers in pretty good shape for $225.00 to $235.00.

So which guy would you rather have on your side in a confrontation? A pimple faced kid with a Les Baer, or a seasoned police officer who is a Master Class PPC shooter, Expert IDPA and A class IPSC armed with the cheap Smith revolver?

My point is (if I have one) that a firearm is a tool and as long as the tool is functional and you are proficient you can get the job done. Jennings no way, a Taurus 85, why not?
 
Hmmmmm....lets compare the number of homicides committed with Ravens, Jennings, Lorcins etc. and compare that to the number of homicides committed with Wilsons, Baers,etc. I realize that this isn't a fair analogy but the cheap pistols accomplish their mission pretty effectively. My Kimber and H&K never have misfeeds...nope...never... uh wanna buy some prime Florida real estate pal?
 
I can see that a lot of people are equating a cheap price with an unreliable gun, and a higher price with a more reliable gun.

While, generally, this may well be the case, it isn't always.

I submit as evidence...

New Makarovs. I've seen them for as low as $179 at gunshows new in box, yet they are as a general rule extremely reliable out of the box.

New AMTs. Generally pretty high price for one of these, and generally, in my experience, they are some of the most UNRELIABLE guns now on the market.

I see that a lot of people are also naturally assuming that we're only talking about semi-automatics.

I'm not.

A new Rossi or Taurus revolver can be had for under $300, and is a very good value for someone who is looking for a defensive handgun.

And although someone has disparaged the trigger pull on the Kel Tecs, I don't find it to be much worse, if any worse, than the trigger pull on most revolvers or even the first shot trigger pull on a lot of DA semi-autos.

And why such an emphasis on a NEW gun? The best values for someone on a budget generally are not in the new guns, but at gunshows in the used guns.

I've seen factory refurbished Glocks, Sigs, and Berettas in the $300-$400 range.

When I'm looking for a defensive handgun, new OR used, these are the criteria on which I judge the gun:

1. Reliability.
2. Ergonomics.
3. Operability (ease using the controls).
4. Caliber.
5. Trigger.
6. Sights.

Yep, sights come last. Why? Because in most defensive situations, you may never even use the sights. Point and snap shooting are seldom discussed here, but I firmly believe that these two skills should be practiced as much, if not more, than shooting with the sights.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
The problem with the question "How much money is your life worth" is that how much your pistol cost has little if anything to do with your chance of surviving a gunfight.

I have an FEG P9 High Power clone that fires any 9mm cartridge every time so far. Single and double action trigger sucks for target shooting, but I figure I can muster the strength to pull it if I have to. Yes, I'd rather have my CZ or my Colt or my _&_ with me, but I wouldn't feel much, if any, safer.

Many expensive features and manufacturing methods have more to do with maximizing the pistols accuracy than with ensuring its reliability. You don't need to be able to shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards to defend yourself, nor do you need a pistol that will last fifty years.

Regards,

Ledbetter
 
I have to agree with Mr. Park. It's nice if you have the money to shell for hi end weapon. But economics dictate. For those not able to buy the higher end of the spectrum, any good reliable gun that will do the job will fit the bill nicely. Had a friend who had a beautiful engraved gun with all the bells and whistles and he couldn't do any better with his high end unit than I did with my S&W model 13. Which I still have today. A plain jane if ever there were one. With fixed sights and a stovepipe barrel. The blueing isn't what it once was. But she's still a shooter. She's saved my bacon on a few occasions.

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***Torpedo***
Life is good if you can survive it!
 
Nobody ever won the Indy 500 in a Corvair. Junk is junk, but a good,reliable handgun is not necessarily expensive nor made abroad.

The market has many used, but still tight, revolvers on it at prices most folks can afford. Police turnins are often nearly unfired, showing holster wear and dings, but sitll good for use. Add inexpensive reloads for practice, one can be well armed on a budget.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave McC:
Nobody ever won the Indy 500 in a Corvair. [/quote]

But nobody ever one it with a turbine powered car either.
Eric
PS Welcome back from Orlando.



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Teach a kid to shoot.
It annoys the antis.
 
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