What's Wrong With This Picture? pun intended

I give up, Butch. You are just so superior that I demand everyone who does not hunt like you turn in their gear immediately.
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Let's say that there is a wide gray line between what I believe is acceptable hunting and what you believe is acceptable hunting. Lets say that I have pretty well defined where I see the line. Can we define where, or if, you see it? Which of these questions would you answer no to.


Is it OK to hunt over bait?
Is it OK to use a deer feeder that has a trough that automatically closes at night so that deer become trained to only come to it in daylight?
Is it OK to use life sized, life like, deer decoys that robotically move and are remote controlled?
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per 100 acres?
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per acre?
Is it OK to use electronic "ears" that enhance your hearing to a point that is well beyond what any human can normally hear?
Is it OK to use a portable infrared sensor to locate deer you can't see?
Is it OK to strap a closed circuit camera to the back of your tree stand so that you can see behind you with a portable TV monitor?
Is it OK to hunt during ML season with a ML that has a scope, if you don't have vision defects?
 
Butch (I had a coach named Butch);

I agree with you sentiment, but I will not ask others to meet my standards on their land or lease (not that mine are particularly high).

Yes, gizmos and gadgets are rediculious at some point. And the more you use the further it takes you from nature and fair chase. Who gets to draw that line? The answer to that question is beautiful: You get to draw the line for you.

These city slickers (I'm a city slicker; probably in the same metroplex) who have heat seeking or intra-red are not getting any real dividend from the spiritual nature of hunting. Their loss. I can't or won't pass judgement as to what they get out of the event.

Now, if they wound deer. Or loose wounded deer. I have a ethical issue if it is reoccuring. If it is happening near our hunting grounds --- I have an ethical issue and a land management issue.
 
Yes, gizmos and gadgets are rediculious at some point.
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You made some good points.

My original point was that NRA was supporting a hunter who has so many cameras set up that he takes 4,600 pictures per year. That is beyond ridiculous, that is extreme. That is so far off the scale as to make me wonder what the NRA is thinking in making it sound like this guy is Mr. Wonderful. 4,600 is an incredible number.

NRA (and this 4,600 pictures a year "hunter") have lost sight of fair chase.

One of the comments above was that hunting isn't "The Truman Show" - which is a very apt description of what this guy is doing. I say what he is doing is wrong, very wrong. NRA says it is right, very right.

What do you say - is he right or is he wrong?
 
So, did you answer yes to every one of the questions? Are you ducking the questions?

Do I want everyone to hunt fair chase? You bet. Do I want them to use equipment that doesn't give them an improper advantage over the deer? You bet. Am I vocal about it? Yes.

So?
 
I say it is wrong to encourage other's to hunt this way. I don't say it is wrong to hunt this way. Semantics I guess. I don't even call that hunting, but what you do on your property is your business.

Besides the fact; it is impossible for the VAST majority to undertake and finance that type of venture.

My father-in-law (who has brought me into the hunting fold) shared a paradigm that I like. It is similar to the Maslow's hiarchy.

New hunter - happy with any methodology if it yields a deer
Experience hunter - enjoys hunting as a challenge and makes it more difficult by reducing their edge if it leads to a dead deer.
Trophy hunter - not satisfied with any deer; willing to pass on taking a deer for a year if it does not meet preset requirement
Management hunter - Global thinking for deer. Will let a trophy pass in order to make more trophys later.
Teacher - Finds it more satisfying to teach other and enjoy their feeling of accomplishements

(I pulled that from memory - I may have goofed and left something out. - It may actually have a source that I can't cite at this point.)
 
Is it OK to hunt over bait? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use a deer feeder that has a trough that automatically closes at night so that deer become trained to only come to it in daylight? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use life sized, life like, deer decoys that robotically move and are remote controlled? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per 100 acres? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use 5 cameras per acre? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use electronic "ears" that enhance your hearing to a point that is well beyond what any human can normally hear? none of your/my business
Is it OK to use a portable infrared sensor to locate deer you can't see? none of your/my business
Is it OK to strap a closed circuit camera to the back of your tree stand so that you can see behind you with a portable TV monitor? none of your/my business
Is it OK to hunt during ML season with a ML that has a scope, if you don't have vision defects? none of your/my business

In other words, its really none of your/my business. Provided it is legal in the area hunting, you don't get to choose, Butch. Simple as that. You may not like it, but the world does not revolve around you.
 
Ya'll oughtta take a chill pill, IMHO... This ain't something worth a big arguement. We know eachother's opinions, and we don't and won't agree... Besides, there are still plenty of deer out there...

Wolfe.
 
To each his own I guess, as long as you have fun. I do not bait. I do not hunt food plots. I do not hunt with a guide. I do not use camera's. And most of the time, I hunt public land. To me, thats hunting. The stuff these guys do on the video's produces deer for them the likes of which i'll never even see in real life, but to me, thats just not hunting. A doe taken my way to me, is much more satisfieing then a 12 point buck their way.
 
he just wants to score points on the antler scale regardless of tradition or hunting ethics
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Hunting ethics are a matter of personal choice.

Personally, I oppose the states banning this technique.

Why? Because the purpose of the hunting license/tag system is to ensure only X deer are killed per year, so as to preserve the population. Long as that is ensured, I believe the method of the kill is none of the legislature's businesss.

The NRA is right to be defending those people.
 
Well David, for someone making the accusation of ducking issues you really answered those questions boldly.

I am aware that I don't get to choose how others hunt. I am aware that people choose their own hunting ethics, and that as long as they remain within the bounds of the law, they can do pretty much as they please.

I am also aware that slob hunters are increasing annually, and that the sport of hunting is becoming or has already become, a poor shadow of it's former self.

You may choose to accept that without regret, that is your right. In opposition to the way that you feel, I feel that the deterioration of the sport is most regrettable.

Unfortunately your point of view is the classic prevailing one, and because of that point of view the sport will continue its deterioration; until some day even you may become digusted with some of it's participants.
 
Unfortunately your point of view is the classic prevailing one, and because of that point of view the sport will continue its deterioration; until some day even you may become digusted with some of it's participants.
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You are right. Hopefully one day we will return to the glory days of the buffalo hide hunters or the great railway hunts.
 
I am also aware that slob hunters are increasing annually, and that the sport of hunting is becoming or has already become, a poor shadow of it's former self.
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I don't buy this for a second, but I bet an old hunter (or someone who wants to be an old hunter) has said the same thing for the past few thousand years. "Why back in my day, we did things the traditional way and chipped our arrowheads out of flint, not dented it out of this newfangled bronze stuff. Every year there are more slob hunters." As fisherman pointed out, hunting's history isn't the romantic ideal where fifty or a hundred years ago everyone did everything ethically and followed your ideas of fair chase and were such cuddly good hunters. There have always been bad hunters and there will always be bad hunters. There have always been the traditionalists (whose opinion on what is traditional varies and will continue to change) and the people who want to try the newfangled gadgets.

You wouldn't be taking your precision rifle into the field if it weren't for some "slob hunter" in the years past "blastin' around with that godawful loud rifle that throws a tiny little pellet when he should be usin' what I'm usin'".

By the way, you keep making a big deal about the number of pictures. As someone who has built several trail-cameras (as I said, I've never used one where I hunt so there's no need to saddle up your high horse) I'd bet that most of those 4600 or however many pictures were taken for the pure pleasure of seeing the deer (and other critters) and showing them off to friends. I don't get the idea this whole setup was just to kill them, but to study them and learn about them and see them when they're alone. Just like when I go hunting it isn't all about slaughtering the first deer I see. I like to watch them, study them and darn it if I had 4600 pictures to look through after a hunt, I'd be pretty happy about it.

Placing trail-cameras isn't just hanging them on every tree you pass, either. You've got to find where the deer are running or sleeping, hang it so that it is facing the right direction, positoin the motion detector. In short, you've got to know an awful lot about them to start out with.
 
Gentlemen, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees. It's not about fancy equipment or techniques. It IS about hunting ETHICS! An ethical hunter can have all the bells and whistles, and still keep the sport clean. Somebody without it? Won't matter what he has; a jerk is a jerk, whether he's in an office building or in a tree stand, and you won't change most of 'em. Things have a way of taking care of themselves though. I gave up (sport) hunting years ago, but here's a parable in fishing: My cousin and I are fishing buddies, but the boat is mine. It's a modern day bass boat that's fast and has all the toys. Good sonar, GPS, Water temp., clarity, and pH sensors, UV lights, underwater TV, you name it. I find the fish and my cousin tries to see how many casts he can get in in a day. He cusses and fusses, and spends the day in hyperdrive. He checks the sonar every few minutes and wants to move if the water pH isn't just right. If he gets skunked, he's a grumpy old man all the way home. I, on the other hand, will make a few casts, maybe catch a few (maybe not, don't really care), then put the rod down, pour myself a cup of joe, play a tape of light classical like Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, and enjoy the sunset. The point? The next day, cuz is still agitated, has sore muscles, and acts generally drained. Me? I'm relaxed and happy. My spiritual batteries have been recharged. I think that I'll probably outlive cuz, and will still be fishing years after he gives it up. I suspect it's the same with hunters as well.
 
Ah, a bad day on the lake beats a good day in the office every time!

fish'n, not catch'n.

When I take kids fish'n (several times a year) I do everything I can to make them successful. Chum the water, rig live bait,.... When I go fish'n...nut'n fancy. Plastic worm, no electronics.

I wan't them in the sport. To get them in the sport they must catch fish. Later they will calm down and see it has nothing to do with fish (or not, but that doen't concern me.)
 
+1 for Charlie.

That is how I am when I go fishing with others. We fish off the shore though so Sonar and stuff we dont use but they work hard the whole time to try and catch fish while I am sitting on my chair (one of thouse chairs that open up) and drinking a cold Dr. Pepper while enjoying my quite time. :) And maybe I take a couple of naps while my line is in the water :p

Funnest thing is that I caught my largest fish while I was napping and my line was in the water :o

Dimitri
 
There have always been bad hunters and there will always be bad hunters.
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Armed with heat seeking motion detecting infrared sensors? Besides, when did the fact that there have always been bad...fill in the blank....make it OK for more of the same?

By the way, you keep making a big deal about the number of pictures.,,,,I like to watch them, study them and darn it if I had 4600 pictures to look through after a hunt, I'd be pretty happy about it.
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He uses cameras to scout deer in his absence, 4,600 per year. To me that is extreme, but so that I have some comparison, how many do you take a year? Any guess as to what is average for hunters who use cameras?

You are right. Hopefully one day we will return to the glory days of the buffalo hide hunters or the great railway hunts.
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Sarcasm replaces discourse - how cool is that? Hopefully we will return to hunting by fair chase methods, but reality is that we won't - we will continue down this slippery slope until people are saying it is just fine to put transmitters on the deer so that they can be tracked down at will.....

Capt Charlie: Funny that you should mention relaxed fishing. My Brother and I have a planned fishing trip for two weeks from now. We decided that we are going to fish from the bank, with el-cheapo spincast reels, plastic bobbers and minnows. That's it, nothing else. I think we are going to have a great day. If we are lucky we might catch a fish, if we do it will get released. I am looking forward to this fishing trip much more than I have ever looked forward to any other.
 
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