What's Wrong With This Picture? pun intended

[...] in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.
Would anyone care to tell me in objective terms what defines "improper advantage"?

One of the guys who got me started in hunting has years of experience, knows deer like the roof of his mouth and can walk out back in blue jeans and a heavy jacket with a bow and a single arrow and come back in within an hour with a gutted deer without a problem. Is his experience and knowledge "improper advantage"? I, for one, could strap a GPS collar to every deer within sixty miles and run around for a week with a gun set up to automatically fire accurately at the collars and I'd be lucky to bring anything home at all. Is my bowhunting from a tree stand an "improper advantage"?

When it comes to hunting, different folks have different levels of tolerance for their own use of advantages, but there seems to be a nearly universal disdain for anyone who wants something to be a bit easier than our own style.
 
Fisher your right you need to think ahead and we do think ahead since all the land we go hunting on is private farms etc that our group members own. :)

Now thats a big deer Charlie :eek:

Ben I think there is a difference between learning how to hunt and outsmarting animals through learnt skills then just using technology to your advantage. A hunters that learnt how to outsmart and be good at hunting is different then using technology and using it to out do deer so you can just kill them all.

Deer learn how to adapt and survive hunting season and the elements. Hunters with experiance learn how to outsmart these older smarter deer. They both put there time and effort to get better at what they are doing so a hunter that can go into the bush and have a deer in a hour isnt a unfair advantage. :) A hunter with little expericance using camaras/other technology to try and gain my advantage artifically is wrong and unfair last I checked deer dont have any technology to help them survive. :cool:

Dimitri
 
Think of it this way. Hunting is a sport that has evolved from what once was a necessity. We don't hunt now because we have to, but we are descended from people who recently did hunt out of necessity. Hunting for sport should reasonably emulate the hunting of the past, it is what our sport is about, emulating the past. Hunting in the past put men and game on a reasonbly level plane - the men had brains and guns while the animals had super senses and instincts plus intimate knowledge of the terrain. A man with a gun who paid attention could kill deer, but it wasn't a given and it wasn't easy. Moving beyond that to the point where killing deer is far more certain is improper advantage.

"Wiring the woods" with cameras that gives one the ability to be in multiple locations simultaneously (and 24/7 at that) for scouting - that is an improper advantage. Over use of new technology is an improper advantage. Infra-red heat probes, super electronic ears, scent blocking suits, feeders, high fences, these are in my opinion improper advantages. There are other improper advantages as well, but these are some of them.
 
Ben I think there is a difference between learning how to hunt and outsmarting animals through learnt skills then just using technology to your advantage. A hunters that learnt how to outsmart and be good at hunting is different then using technology and using it to out do deer so you can just kill them all.
I don't think Drury uses technology to "kill them all", just do some serious scouting beforehand.
Couldn't we say the same thing about using any technology to our advantage? Like long range weapons, scents, attractants, binoculars, or whatever?
Deer learn how to adapt and survive hunting season and the elements. Hunters with experiance learn how to outsmart these older smarter deer. They both put there time and effort to get better at what they are doing so a hunter that can go into the bush and have a deer in a hour isnt a unfair advantage.
I've built and used several trail cameras. Never used them in an area I planned on hunting, but it was neat to get some shots of some critters doing their thing when there weren't any people around.
Now, Drury went out and put them around his property. Then he went back and checked them often, collecting thousands of pictures of deer. He mapped out where they were and when. He learned where they moved and what times they would likely be in a given location. He used cameras to do some of the leg work, but he learned an awful lot about the deer at the same time.
Now he's better at hunting than he was before. Poring over pictures of deer and recording timestamps for hours on end is a fair bit of work, isn't it?
A hunter with little expericance using camaras/other technology to try and gain my advantage artifically is wrong and unfair last I checked deer dont have any technology to help them survive.
How do you excuse the use of a firearm or bow to kill at a distance in the first place? Isn't that using technology to try to gain an artificial advantage that is a little unfair?



Butch,
Think of it this way. Hunting is a sport that has evolved from what once was a necessity. We don't hunt now because we have to, but we are descended from people who recently did hunt out of necessity. Hunting for sport should reasonably emulate the hunting of the past, it is what our sport is about, emulating the past. Hunting in the past put men and game on a reasonbly level plane - the men had brains and guns while the animals had super senses and instincts plus intimate knowledge of the terrain. A man with a gun who paid attention could kill deer, but it wasn't a given and it wasn't easy. Moving beyond that to the point where killing deer is far more certain is improper advantage.
I don't hunt to emulate the past. I hunt to spend some quiet time in nature, to feel closer to it and to harvest some fine meat. I hunt to learn about deer, to get an opportunity to watch animals. I hunt because I enjoy hunting. Not to playact.

I don't wear buckskin and moccasins. I wear insulated coveralls and good, heavy boots.
I don't carry antique weapons, I carry precise, modern weapons - whether I'm toting a compound bow with a release and very comfortable letoff or a Remington 870 with a rifled barrel and easy-to-see sights, a modern-manufacture blackpowder rifle or a Smith and Wesson .357.
I don't use primative propellants or projectiles, I use modern ammunition (unless I'm using a frontstuffer, but it is still far more accurate, more consistant and more reliable than the old stuff). My arrows wear modern broadheads, have aluminum shafts and plastic nocks.
In areas I'm unfamiliar with, I bring a GPS with an integrated radio.

If I'm emulating the past, it is emulating the tactics that worked.

Okay, I've got a question for you folks. Have any of you ever hunted with some old, experienced hunter who knows all the tricks? Maybe on a bit of property that he's intimately familiar with? Maybe he was your dad, or grandpa or uncle or just a friend. I have. He didn't shove me in the direction of the forest and say "Go find your own deer, punk." He lead me to a spot where he knew deer were active (something he had learned from years of hunting the area). He knew what direction they'd probably come from and about the time they'd be most likely to come and he told me what to look for. He told me where I could sit to have the best chance of getting a shot because he wanted me to have a good first hunt.

Was that an improper advantage?

If you go to hunt on a friend's property, do you ever ask where the deer have been running? Ever talk about where the freshest sign is? Even if you haven't gone out there on your own?

Is that an improper advantage? You haven't done anything but sit and talk with someone. You haven't even studied pictures and marked locations on a map. I'd argue that talking with a very experienced, very knowledgable hunter familiar with an area could be much more of an advantage than having a few thousand pictures to sort through and analyze yourself.

I don't think I'd be interested in doing what Mark Drury did. Doesn't sound like fun to me. Still, I'm not about to climb up on a high rocking horse and pretend I'm so much better than him because I like to get my advantages from people rather than pictures.

A true "fair" hunt would mean grabbing a broken tree limb and stalking a deer to beat to death. I doubt many of you are doing that.
 
Quote from Ben: I don't hunt to emulate the past.
Actually, yes you do. You don't hunt for food or skins for clothing - you hunt as a sport and that sport is based upon tradition and that tradition is an emulation of the past. Or else you only hunt for the prurient pleaure of killing animals - it is one or the other. Either you hunt for sport and that sport is based on tradition or you are one of those people who just want to kill things.

What would happen to basketball if they lowered the baskets to 8 feet? What would happen to golf if the PGA didn't have strict limitations on balls and clubs? What would happent to baseball if they didn't have strict limitations on balls and bats? Those are traditions. What would happen to any sport if they said - hey use any technology that you want to, change the rules any way that suits your purpose? All sport are artificial realities, with rules of the game that every one plays by. Take away those rules, based on the traditions of the sport, and you have nothing at all.

Quote from Ben: Okay, I've got a question for you folks. Have any of you ever hunted with some old, experienced hunter who knows all the tricks?
There, right there, you have absolutley nailed the finest of all of the hunting traditions. The passing of knowledge, the passing of traditions themselves from older to younger hunters. There is no finer tradition than to be taught by an old hunter. If anything represents the sport of hunting, it is the mentorship of the experienced hunter. Improper advantage? Not at all.

Let me show you a few improper advantages: These are direct quotes from a The Sportsmans Buide Hunting catalog that I received this week:

Dont' Settle for just any decoy when you can have this Mojo Motion Deer Decoy...the full body decoy flicks it's tail and moves it's head/neck....remote controlled from up to 350 feet
Nocturnal Nightmare Daytime Feeder trains hungry deer to come out during the day when your awake and waiting...An advanced digital timing unit only allows access to the gravity feed trough style feeding area during daylight/hunting hours...
Aimshot HeatSeeker infrared spotter tracks down any heat source up to 300 yards...The same heat-seeking/motion technology that military and law enforcement types depend on....
StealhCam - It's your eyes for 24/7 scouting!

So where do you draw the line? What is your puking point? When do you say it is too much? At what point will you say, that is an improper advantage? These things disgust me. :barf:
 
In this country , aren't we allowed to have an individual opinion as to what is ethical and what is not within our laws and constitution. The reason the story of Mr. Drury was published in the first place is because what he did was interesting and unique. He didn't jeopardize any deer population. He just wanted to shoot a nice deer. Seems as though you feel that anyone without the same beliefs as you is somewhat less of a person. Thats simply not true.
 
He just wanted to shoot a nice deer. Seems as though you feel that anyone without the same beliefs as you is somewhat less of a person. Thats simply not true.
He wired the woods up with sophisticated electronic equipment to the point that he was taking 4,600 photos per year, and that is just wanting to shoot a nice deer? 4,600 photos a year? I haven't taken that many in my entire life, have you? Do I think hunters that don't hunt at a basic skill level are less of a person? Nope, but people who rely on sophisticated gadgetry to overcome the deers native ability instead of developing hunting skills are not hunters that I have any respect for. Guess you could tell, huh? :D

In this country , aren't we allowed to have an individual opinion as to what is ethical and what is not
Take that attitude with you the next time you play any sport and see where it gets you.

How about one of these for your next hunting trip?
Wireless Stealth Cam Range Camera Monitor System - See action in 2 places at once! Look ahead from your stand AND glance at the 5" black & white monitor to see deer sneaking up behind you up to 100 yds. Plus infrared emitters allow imaging in low light conditions.

Dimitri we are obviously an endangered species.
 
How terrible of him using modern technology, the only ethical way to take deer is by buldogging them and breaking their neck. :rolleyes: :D
 
Well Butch thats ok I am young so I got plenty of time to try and get people to understand ;).

Plus dont worry Butch that alot of people here dont agree with us all my friends who are hunters think the same way. And the one that is teaching me about hunting as I am still young is pretty conservative about hunting. He wears thouse red and black checkered jackets still (same one after 20 years of hunting since he got it :p).

His ideas about hunting still manage to out do all the technology that other hunters I have seen use and I want to learn to hunt just like him being relativly new to hunting myself. :D

Dimitri
 
How terrible of him using modern technology, the only ethical way to take deer is by buldogging them and breaking their neck
Is that your best shot? And your a hunter? :D

His ideas about hunting still manage to out do all the technology that other hunters I have seen use and I want to learn to hunt just like him being relativly new to hunting myself.
Good for you, you are one of the lucky ones to have a mentor teaching you skills and respect.

Lack of mentorship may be the predominant factor in the creation of slob hunters.
 
/rant
If you're gonna use a truckload of cameras, why bother?! Just raise that perfect buck on a freakin' farm... You'll still have your trophy, and you'll have spent about as much raising the darn thing as you woulda spent on cams, time wasted looking at footage, and film!

/end rant

I think it's kinda stupid to use such an excess of technology, but if he wants the biggest buck and doesn't care how he gets it, then who am I to argue? Like most things, personal preference rules the day. Me? When I hunt, I'll have a 70+ year old rifle, iron sights, and some orange clothes. A map, also...

Wolfe.

EDIT: Then again... For my first couple hunts, I might cheat a lil' and drag an old geezer along with me... ;) :D
 
EDIT: Then again... For my first couple hunts, I might cheat a lil' and drag an old geezer along with me...
You need a mentor or teacher to learn anything in life its not cheating ;).

I dont know about any of you but without my parents, other adults I know and teachers I wouldnt be the person I am today they taught me everything to date about academics and life I dont think its cheating. Better then everyone still living in caves .... but wait a caveman would take his son hunting to teach him how to hunt wouldnt he ?? ;)

Me I got my "old geezer" so to speak (he is like 45 and has been hunting for the last 35+ years :p) .... I dont think I am cheating just learning something that has been passed down from one person to another throughout the ages in its most basic form teaching someone what you know to be passed down to the newest generation. ;)

Teaching someone how to hunt is probrobly just as much part of hunting as actually killing the animal in this fine long tradition dating back thousands of years :D

Dimitri
 
This is such a funny thread-one guy goes out and spends a billion-zillion dollars on cameras, and now we have people sticking their noses in the air like they are Christ coming to cleanse the unwashed.

Take a break.

It's not your hunt and its not your money. NOBODY is telling you that you must hunt this way. I'm sure there is some do-gooder politician who will try to fix it for you. And about 10 more who want to fix you too!

I hunt out of a stand (oh NO!) in an area where you either stand hunt or you better be 10 feet tall to see over the scrub, cactus and mesquite. Feeder runs year around and has done so for decades. Never see the big ones coming to it in the daylight, but I once took "unfair advantage" and watched all night with infared to see what was coming around. Fun, even without a rifle.

My biggest deer have generally been taken in the opposite direction, but I hunt mostly doe. No need for horns, doe's are easier to dress out, and since most of the guys on the lease are horn hunters, I figure I balance it out by taking a couple of girls each year. But then, I am a meat hunter, and take shots according to the size of the animal.
Little ones don't interest me because there just isn't much there. My targets are the medium-large to large does and bucks. This is not a sport for me-I do not care for some of the steroids found in beef cattle, so its mainly what I graze on all year.
 
now we have people sticking their noses in the air like they are Christ coming to cleanse the unwashed.
Feeder runs year around and has done so for decades.
This is not a sport for me-
I do not care for some of the steroids found in beef cattle, so its mainly what I graze on all year.

The comparison to Christ was rather sickening. It shows deep anger and resentment, far more than would be expected from someone not personally offended

Could it be that you hunt on private land and don't see the slob hunters? Could it be that since you hunt on private land that you are not aware of how badly the sport is deteriorating?

Or could it be that some of what I said hit too close to home for you? Is that why you are saying you don't hunt for sport? Really? Then why don't you just pen raise deer for slaughter? Or save your self money and all that wasted time and effort of sitting in a stand and shooting deer, and just buy organic meat? You don't enjoy hunting? To you it is just a meat harvest?

Or could it be that you enjoy hunting, as a sport, but don't want to defend the fact that you are training deer to come to a specific place every day with bait, and that even though legal, under the rules of fair chase that is an improper advantage? You can not have it both ways, so you try to wiggle out by saying you don't hunt for sport. I call you on that - I call that hypocrisy. If it wasn't a sport for you, if it was just for meat, you would either raise it like livestock or buy meat that is raised without steroids, which is readily available on the market.
 
A lot of what some of you hate about what's happening to the sport, is exactly what's keeping it alive, and continuing to draw people into the sport.

As someone pointed out, a lot of urbanites are involved in hunting which require them to take off from work, plan an expensive mini-vacation...etc. They want to bag a deer. Period. So if they use the latest advanced muzzle loader or that high tech compound bow or any other newer gadget - I can understand why. At least that person is a hunter - and may end up standing shoulder to shoulder with you fighting for gun rights. Remember that while you shake your head in disgust at them walking into the woods with that Mathews Switchback, dawned in camo, with a GPS in one hand, and a high energy bar in the other.

I don't know for sure, if numbers are up or down for the sport of hunting. One thing I am sure of, is that I don't care if the "new generation" of hunters has to walk into the woods looking like a pack of ninjas - if they can afford to do that - well that's just great. I'm just glad they're out there hunting.

And, for those who think they are a "primitive hunter", you may not understand the meaning of the word primitive - nor do you understand the origins and history of hunting. It didn't begin here in America (at least not from your ancestors) and it certainly didn't begin with muzzle loaders and long bows.
 
As someone pointed out, a lot of urbanites are involved in hunting which require them to take off from work, plan an expensive mini-vacation...etc. They want to bag a deer. Period.

I live in praticlly right in down town Toronto and every hunter I know is a "urbanites" but they own some land far from here. They go scouting every weekend before the season to locate where the deer should roughly be. They take there vacation from work once season starts and they hunt the whole time. :)

None of them have went to hightech nonsense in there time hunting. :) The most hightech equipment they carry is a GPS system so they dont get lost and walkie talkies which are required by law when your group hunting :p

They have seen all sorts of people using "hightech" equipment like heat sensors etc for moose hunting and all that fancy equipment has never payed off. :)

Dimitri
 
people who rely on sophisticated gadgetry to overcome the deers native ability instead of developing hunting skills are not hunters that I have any respect for.
I still don't understand ... how does a firearm not fall under this statement? You've got some arbitrary standard that you bend so that you can have fun your own way and anyone who does things differently is a "slob hunter". You use a sophisticated gadget as a means to overcome the deer's native ability in the first place and then proclaim that no one else should use sophistcated gadgetry if it doesn't meet your arbitrary standards.
Or could it be that you enjoy hunting, as a sport, but don't want to defend the fact that you are training deer to come to a specific place every day with bait, and that even though legal, under the rules of fair chase that is an improper advantage? You can not have it both ways, so you try to wiggle out by saying you don't hunt for sport. I call you on that - I call that hypocrisy. If it wasn't a sport for you, if it was just for meat, you would either raise it like livestock or buy meat that is raised without steroids, which is readily available on the market.
Hypocrisy? Like complaining that people use technology to kill deer while you carry a weapon into the field that can accurately put a projectile into the deer's vitals from a great distance? Like it or not, that's advanced technology whether it is a scoped centerfire rifle or a flintlock frontstuffer. Whether your bow is a compound with a letoff or a simple recurve. That gives you an unfair advantage over a deer, but that doesn't bother you because it is the way you enjoy doing things.

Hunting is a sport, sure, but not a team sport. It's not a sport where you have to come check with me before you can change the color of your camo or where I have to run my new load by you before I go hunt with it. There are some basic laws set out to govern the taking of game that vary from state to state, but as long as you operate within those laws you're just competing with yourself. You keep referring to going to play a team sport and changing the rules. Well, this isn't that type of sport. If you want to make that comparison, a more accurate one would be you walking into another family's baseball game and complaining about their bat being corked, their ball being non-reg and that they were wearing unapproved sunglasses or didn't have the right size field and stomping off complaining that they weren't really playing baseball if the pitching rubber wasn't 60' 6" from home plate.

My hunting mentor doesn't like to use a firearm at all. It's not that he never has, or that he sees something unethical with it, they just make the sport too easy for him. He wants the challenge of bowhunting. That's great, and his choice. He doesn't tell me (or you) to ditch the guns entirely and only bowhunt.

The sport of hunting is about competing with yourself, not with every other hunter. If you're into that and you want to hunt competatively then you will have to adopt the rules of some organization. This guy hunted a different way than you would. Fine. I wouldn't do it his way either. I won't sit here and call him a slob hunter because he doesn't hunt my way, though. As far as we know, he cleanly killed the deer he hunted and did so within the laws of his state on his own property. If it took him a thousand dollars worth of camera equipment, that's his business.

It is kind of funny how self-righteous people get when someone does something a different way and it works.

Please understand, Butch, it's not that I disagree with your chosen methods of hunting. I wouldn't enjoy hunting the way Drury does. It wouldn't do it for me. Your style of hunting is a lot closer to mine, I think. I love to spend time being a part of nature, not running power cables through it. The difference between us is that where you see some joker breaking your rules and being a personal insult to you, I see some guy doing things differently than I would want to but doing them safely and in his own back yard. Unfortunately, your attitude is more akin to those who say "Well I've got no need for an scary-looking rifle that shoots fast, so no one should own them!" or "Pistols are fun to shoot, but I don't carry one so we shouldn't let them be made small enough to conceal."
 
:rolleyes:
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It shows deep anger and resentment, far more than would be expected from someone not personally offended

Butch-I don't really care what you think. This isn't brain surgery, just an internet site. I don't have a single issue with the way you hunt. You sound like a safe hunter to me, which, in my book is very important. Hard to enjoy a day in the field when you leave in an ambulance or a hearse. One of the main reasons I hunt on a lease-or should I say shoot deer on a lease in order to keep your blood pressure down ;)

Why don't I pen raise deer? That might be an issue on the postage stamp piece of ground I live on, but I am working on getting out of the city, which might also have some say about animals I raise in the yard.

As to the hippocrite part, check your mirror, friend. You are developing a mightier than thou attitude, and so long as you are freely dispensing advice, I have a tidbit for you-cancel your subscription to American Hunter magazine. They obviously show different ways of taking game, and it upsets you unnecessarily.

If this kind of thing is "not hunting" to you, so be it. Nobody is gonna throw stones at you. I don't think you should be tossing them either, but that is your choice. One of the main reasons we feed is to suppliment their diet, which is not much in the way of food. As I said before, I don't shoot over the feeder mainly because only the youngun's congregate there. Maybe you missed that part.

There is a pretty good reason I stand hunt, other than the fact that if you are hunting where I hunt, your shots are gonna be limited to about 5 yards on a shale hill full of salt cedar, cactus and mesquite. The other reason should be obvious in my attached picture. It's not bad for normal walking, but it does kind of get in the way for rough terrain. Think its easy? Lets see you do it!
 
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As to the hippocrite part, check your mirror, friend. You are developing a mightier than thou attitude, and so long as you are freely dispensing advice, I have a tidbit for you-cancel your subscription to American Hunter magazine. They obviously show different ways of taking game, and it upsets you unnecessarily.
I would be a hypocrite if I preached one thing and did another. I don't though, thank you. The Magazine is just another symptom of the illness infecting hunting. If it was the only thing, then believe me I wouldn't read it, but it is a minor thing yet indicative.

There is a pretty good reason I stand hunt
And a good reason it appears to be too. Hunting techniques also have to change with terrain. In super thick brush, there may be no other reasonable way than an elevated stand, if a stand is used without bait that is. If you feed primarily to supplement the deers nutrition, you can also do that without hunting over it.

people who rely on sophisticated gadgetry to overcome the deers native ability instead of developing hunting skills are not hunters that I have any respect for. I still don't understand ... how does a firearm not fall under this statement?
Hunting is a traditional sport. We traditionally hunt with guns, some with bows. Traditional, see? It is not traditional to use electronic spy gear, for instance. Using a new modern precision rifle during rifle season is just fine. Using a modern ML during centerfire season is excellent. Using a bow during centerfire season is awesome. Would you consider it OK to use a rifle during bow only season? Given your logic it would seem to be fine.

The sport of hunting is about competing with yourself
Competing with yourself? What? You are competing with the deer, not with yourself or other hunters. You are pitting your skill and brain against the deers' instincts, senses and knowledge of the field.


It is kind of funny how self-righteous people get when someone does something a different way and it works.
You think it wrong to get angry when someone sees a fine traditional sport being vandalized by consumer frenzy and the "I gott have a deer every time I go hunting cause I live in the city and only have a little time to hunt" crowd?------

As someone pointed out, a lot of urbanites are involved in hunting which require them to take off from work, plan an expensive mini-vacation...etc. They want to bag a deer. Period.
That is true and so WRONG! Hunting isn't about bagging a deer every trip. In fact, these same people spend so much money on hunting that they feel that they MUST bag a deer. The instant gratification group sucks. Pure and simple sucks. I live in the middle of a very large metro-plex and I have as little time as anyone else for hunting - yet I don't for a minute feel bad if a hunting trip doesn't end with a carcass. It is the process that is important, not the body count.
 
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