What's wrong with my ammo?
- Thread starter TheMayor
- Start date
azredhawk44
Moderator
Makes perfect sense.
The .357sig has so little surface area contact between the case mouth and bullet side, it is notorious for setback. Just not enough friction.
A 165gr .45acp bullet has perhaps 0.20" (I don't know, just spitballing a guess) of actual .451 diameter portion of the bullet to rub against the straight wall of the 45acp case. A heavier bullet is longer and protrudes into the case farther, so a 230gr bullet may have 0.40" of actual .451 diameter portion of the bullet to rub against the straight wall of the 45acp case.
Given all other variables are equal, then more surface area always means more friction. To get more surface area in the seated portion of a bullet, you have to increase its length, which means you increase its mass accordingly to get that extra length.
Actually I agree. Probably not good clear advice on my part. I was just pointing out that you can do this to reduce the possibility of set-back. But I must admit I only "ride the slide" when testing. When I want to leave a round loaded for business I let the slide go home in normal fashion.
ChicagoTex
Moderator
Giving your frequent unloading/reloading regimen, I'm not sure ANY autoloader is an appropriate choice.
Setback happens sooner or later with any ammo, in any auto (polished feed ramp or no), no matter how "gentle" you are - unless you shoot up and replace your carry ammo very often, I'd choose a revolver as the only consistently safe choice.
Setback happens sooner or later with any ammo, in any auto (polished feed ramp or no), no matter how "gentle" you are - unless you shoot up and replace your carry ammo very often, I'd choose a revolver as the only consistently safe choice.
Now you're getting into an area of physics that says surface area has little to nothing to do with friction. The coefficient of friction between the two metals of the case and bullet would be the same no matter how much surface area is involved.
If the force of friction combined with the surface area is what holds bullets in place, then a .177 bullet would be very easy to pull out of its case compared to a .458 bullet (all other factors such as case and bullet metals being equal). They're not.
If there is more pull required for a larger bullet (which I'm not sure there is), I think it might have more to do with the crimp being tighter on the larger round, and bearing into the bullet ever so slightly. An analogy would be a pair of pliers - the larger round is holding onto the bullet with a larger pair of pliers, so to speak. True friction doesn't enter into it to a great extent.
If the force of friction combined with the surface area is what holds bullets in place, then a .177 bullet would be very easy to pull out of its case compared to a .458 bullet (all other factors such as case and bullet metals being equal). They're not.
If there is more pull required for a larger bullet (which I'm not sure there is), I think it might have more to do with the crimp being tighter on the larger round, and bearing into the bullet ever so slightly. An analogy would be a pair of pliers - the larger round is holding onto the bullet with a larger pair of pliers, so to speak. True friction doesn't enter into it to a great extent.
I agree...Given the unique circumstances the OP is stuck with, its the only answer I could come up with...short of buying ALOT of carry ammo and pitching the top round every couple days.
Really though, if you know your gun and how it feels, I have ridden the slide down before and never had a problem with the round properly chambering. If its out of battery, you should be able to notice it...
As a whole though, its always better to let the gun function the way its designed....I still think a revolver would be the best choice in that situation.
The other day at work a fella was complaining about how hard it was to tie his shoe laces. How much time it took and how tedious it was and that if you did it wrong (one lace left too long, the loop too big, etc.) you could trip, while walking or running, and crack your skull.
Another co worker advised getting those velcro things and forego the laces. Nope he wasn't going there he needed the laces.
Now if a fella is gonna carry, or even use a semi, one of the things you need to know to do is to rotate your carry ammo now and again and to not repeatedly drop the slide on any one round. You can do it 2-3 times on any one round and the round will still be good and safe, but after that put another in it's place. This is one of the small things that folks sometimes forget to tell people about or to mention. This is because it is a simple thing akin to tying ones shoe laces. It is not a troublesome thing to do. It is a simple thing. It is hard for all of us to learn to tie our shoe laces as children but once we got it down it became simple, for some anyway. Maybe too simple for others.
Or you could go to a revolver (akin to those velcro straps) and forget about the "trouble" of rotating a round.
This is one of the simple everyday things about self loading firearms that are not a "problem" or a "weakness" they are just part of the deal.
tipoc
Another co worker advised getting those velcro things and forego the laces. Nope he wasn't going there he needed the laces.
Now if a fella is gonna carry, or even use a semi, one of the things you need to know to do is to rotate your carry ammo now and again and to not repeatedly drop the slide on any one round. You can do it 2-3 times on any one round and the round will still be good and safe, but after that put another in it's place. This is one of the small things that folks sometimes forget to tell people about or to mention. This is because it is a simple thing akin to tying ones shoe laces. It is not a troublesome thing to do. It is a simple thing. It is hard for all of us to learn to tie our shoe laces as children but once we got it down it became simple, for some anyway. Maybe too simple for others.
Or you could go to a revolver (akin to those velcro straps) and forget about the "trouble" of rotating a round.
This is one of the simple everyday things about self loading firearms that are not a "problem" or a "weakness" they are just part of the deal.
tipoc
It's ok to talk theory about contact surface and coefficient of friction, but it's really about having a good crimp. I am sure the set-back issues I have had on Blazer Brass 230g FMJ was due to weak crimp.
Having said that, I will say (at least for me) I can chamber a round a high number of times in my P90 with no set-back issues. Compared to just a small number of times in my 1911 to cause problems.
No, I don't want to sell my 1911.
This is a good thread. No arguing, just making people aware of a potential problem.
Having said that, I will say (at least for me) I can chamber a round a high number of times in my P90 with no set-back issues. Compared to just a small number of times in my 1911 to cause problems.
No, I don't want to sell my 1911.
This is a good thread. No arguing, just making people aware of a potential problem.
Don't confuse case mouth tension with crimp. There's a very limited amount of crimp on a .45 round because this particular chambering headspaces on on the case mouth itself. Compare the crimp on a .44 Mag with a .45 Auto and you should see a visible difference.
Some ammo makers also crimp the round further down away from the case mouth, but typically only when the bullet construction allows for it. Not all rounds are the same.
One thing remains the same-- for the amount of jack they sell premium defense ammo at, you have a damn good right to expect and demand more out of it.
Some ammo makers also crimp the round further down away from the case mouth, but typically only when the bullet construction allows for it. Not all rounds are the same.
One thing remains the same-- for the amount of jack they sell premium defense ammo at, you have a damn good right to expect and demand more out of it.
The amount of force require to over come a friction fit is a function of the area of contact, the coefficient of friction and the load pressing the sliding surfaces together.
So a longer amount of bullet in the case will make it harder to pull, a larger diameter bullet will make it harder to pull and a highly crimp case will also make it harder to pull. i assume the coefficient of friction does not change much between various cartridges.
So a longer amount of bullet in the case will make it harder to pull, a larger diameter bullet will make it harder to pull and a highly crimp case will also make it harder to pull. i assume the coefficient of friction does not change much between various cartridges.