Whats the proper way to take a loaded gun from someone?

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Samaurai, there's no "one size fits all". If you were on a Flight 93, your only choice is to either die with "only" your fellows on-board, or die with maybe thousands of others.

A recent trend in holdups, apparently, is that perps will shoot victims, even after successfully acquiring valuables. So, what's to lose?

Now, a perp at 15 feet, with a pistol in a retention hold: I do believe I'd be obedient if he told me to drop my billfold on the ground and walk away. I'd walk away, watching. When he bent to pick up the billfold, I'd probably shoot him--in Texas, I'd have the written law on my side.

:), Art
 
Samurai:
True, many of the stops (dealing with draw prevention) are quite useless against a samurai, because the samurai already know how to avoid the maneuver.
Actually, while a "Samurai" might have known a defense, the "draw prevention" techniques are very good and can be used for handgun retention as I stated.
The interception of at attacker's weapon during a strike, accompanied by a throw and a stripping of the weapon. If done properly, I do not yet know of a suitable defense.
This is the fantasy part. "Interception" of any blade weapon is EXTREMELY difficult and chancy, and the Aikido "methods" even chancier still.
And, incidentally, we did try the magic marker thing with this guy. He recieved a one-inch mark on the webbing between the thumb and index finger, and he got the marker away from us. He then proceeded to draw a mustache on the poor sap who attacked him with the marker!
Then, I'd argue that the "attacker" either didn't try very hard or cooperated. Or he didn't know what the heck he was doing with a blade. Get a guy who knows what he is doing with a knife (nothing fancy - say 1 year training with a blade fighting system like Kali, for example) and see how he does against an Aikido blackbelt. BTW, the vast majority of Aikido instructors I've met are also clueless about what it is like to be cut with a blade.
Now, for all you other people who insist that it's better to die in the name of self defense than to lose twenty bucks and a trip to the DMV...
Again, only if that were actually the case. We don't really know the intention of the aggressor, do we? Does he want the 20 bucks or does he want to kill you and brag to his gang buddies? Do you want to take that chance? Do you want to give him the sole choice on whether you live or die?

Skorzeny
 
Can't remember the name at all but I recall a buddy of mine ordering a tape by two guys (early/mid '90's about the time Dogg Bros. first came out., I want to say they were SF but can't recall, that was all disarms. They showed techniques from all angles. and used paint (like simunitions) to show if you'd get hit. They took rounds fairly often against each other but "usually" they were in non-crit. areas. The big thing was to get as close to the weapon as possible. If it's touching you you have a point of reference to get out off line and are close enough to realistically get a grip on the weapon/hand and do disarms from there. The distance cuts down on reaction options. I you're 3-4 feet away, figure out something else cause you're gonna get hit if the guy is competent.

They never guaranteed you'd not get hit but that you'd have a chance.

Seemed pretty good, they marketed it partly by doing demos at gunshows with red guns. (only used the sim. against each other or their staff)
 
weapon disarmament

There are two rules in this type of situation:
1- If you are taking a weapon, ALWAYS PUSH.
2- If it's being taken from you, ALWAYS PULL.

Then there are a few basic principles:
1- The gun is not going to kill you. The person is. This is not
to down play the importance of the gun, but without
the person, the gun is nothing more than a chunk of
steel.
2- Whatever system or technique you use must be able
to work in any situation, and can't rely on strength
or size. Anyone should be able to do it, whether you're
65 and over weight, 25 in great shape, or 5'2" 125 lbs
like my wife.
If, like most of these responses suggest, you focus on the weapon, and try to fight the weapon you will most likely be killed by the person behind the weapon. But, if you focus on the person and take them out, the weapon is a moot point.
If you grab hold of the gun with your hands, as most people suggest, while you are trying to "grip the slide, remove the slide, jam the cylinder, etc." his first instinct will be to pull back. This will bring the weapon to your center line every time. He could shoot you with his eyes closed. This is why, in rule two, you ALWAYS PULL.
Here is an example scenario:
You are standing at the ATM. You feel a gun pressed to your back and hear "Hand it over or you're dead." Your family is in the car to your right, the empty bank building to the left.
While we are going to focus on the attacker and take him out, we still must be aware that the gun could go off. So we must control it's field of fire. In this case it must go left, away from our family.
Let's assume he's right handed. Turn to your right, stepping back with right foot, while bringing right arm up and over his. Trap his wrist under your arm pit. At the same time you're bringing your left arm up and over his right arm, putting your left arm pit where his arm joins his shoulder. All the while always moving back into him. (rule one: ALWAYS PUSH.) You can claw his eyes as your hand goes by. At this point, drop your whole body weight on his shoulder and ride him to the ground, keeping his arm pinned to your chest. When done quickly the arm can be broken while standing. If it is not, once you're on the ground, he will be laying on his face, you will be on your front with his right arm extended under your chest. You can now break it by rotating to your right and lifting up at his wrist. Remove the gun, wreak further havoc, whatever you deem necessary. Throughout the fight the gun will have swung to your left, then come back to about where you were facing to start with, leaving your family out of the line of fire.
You say " what if he has it in his left hand?" So? Do the same thing. Now you can elbow strike him to the throat if you want, as you go over his left arm this time taking him down with your body weight just like before. only this time instead of staying on him all the way to the ground as he is falling, just go down on your right knee, keeping his left wrist pinned under your right arm. Try this very slowly (in practice) as the elbow comes down right across your left leg as he falls on his back. Need I say what happens next? (hint: he drops the gun)
If you are really seriously interested in learning how to defend yourself or your loved ones against anything, I strongly suggest you visit www.scars.com . SCARS is a fighting system unlike anything you have ever seen before. Used properly, it is 100% undefeatable. It is part of the Navy SEALS BUDS training, and is taught to other elite units and law enforcment. It is not a fake "Navy SEAL system" like Frank Cuchi and the many other frauds out there. I ran into some SEAL snipers a couple years ago and asked them about SCARS, and they said "Yeah, we got that during BUDS".
If you have any questions, feel free to email me at rmknights@hotmail.com
 
Whatever system or technique you use must be able
to work in any situation, and can't rely on strength
or size. Anyone should be able to do it, whether you're
65 and over weight, 25 in great shape, or 5'2" 125 lbs
like my wife.
Both "techniques" and physical attributes like strength, speed, etc. are contributing factors. Without physical attributes, there is no technique.
SCARS is a fighting system unlike anything you have ever seen before. Used properly, it is 100% undefeatable.
No, not like Kung Fu San Soo at all! :) 100%, eh? Are you sure it's not 76.37328%?
It is part of the Navy SEALS BUDS training, and is taught to other elite units and law enforcment. It is not a fake "Navy SEAL system" like Frank Cuchi and the many other frauds out there. I ran into some SEAL snipers a couple years ago and asked them about SCARS, and they said "Yeah, we got that during BUDS".
Oh, really? Not "fake," eh? I wonder who brought up such dastardly charges. I ran to some ninjas a couple years ago and asked them about Iron Monkey Kung Fu, and they said, "yeah, we got that during ninja super training (along with how to conjure up spells)."

Skorzeny
 

Actually, SCARS is real. It's a combination of old fashioned Marine LINE (Linear In-fighting Excercise) training and some specific Aikido techniques. 100% undefeatable??? Depends on who we're talking about. On the battlefield, loaded down with all your gear, the stuff the USMC practices is pretty damn effective. So one would have to assume that SCARS is as well. However, the street is not a battlefield situation. At least the name sounds cool...
 
fix:

Supposedly, Jerry Peterson (the founder of SCARS) studied Kung Fu San Soo. I don't think it is based on Aikido.

As for Aikido, please refer to my first post on this thread.

As for Marine LINE training, it is like many other forms of military unarmed/extreme close-quarters fighting - it's for morale value only.

The best of the sort that I've seen is Sambo (not just competition Sambo, but all aspects of it - including spade fighting).

Skorzeny
 
Skorzeny:

Supposedly, Jerry Peterson (the founder of SCARS) studied Kung Fu San Soo. I don't think it is based on Aikido.
You are correct there. I double checked and it turned out I was mistaken. Peterson's web site doesn't really specify anything. But from watching some of the techniques, it's pretty easy to draw some conclusions. Most of what I saw looked like a LINE excercise with some additional training in footwork and upper body alignment.
As for Marine LINE training, it is like many other forms of military unarmed/extreme close-quarters fighting - it's for morale value only.
I've heard that from several folks, most of whom had little if any experience with the training. If practiced regularly, which most Marines admittedly do not do, it is very effective against the type of opponent a Marine is most likely to face in combat. The Marine Corps isn't a martial arts school. They aren't trying to turn recruits into ninja warriors in 12 weeks...just effective fighters in a particular environment.
 
The Marines have dropped LINE (linear infighting neural engagement) in favor of a new system, haven't gotten the package yet, some people I respect (serious martial artists on their own time) say the new system is much more realistic and useful. The Commandant is committed to ensuring time is alotted for Marines to stay current in it.

I saw a buddy of mine whup up on a guy who outweighed him by about 50 pounds using LINE, but he was a scrapper just out of SOI and the other guy was blotto so I'm not sure if it proves anything. "sweep and stomp" do make a mess though...;)
 
Gun Take Aways

If you want the Best Gun take away techniques without the B.S. go to your local Krav Maga school, ask for a demo or www.kravmaga.com and order thier tapes.

The gun techniques are the best I've seen and the simplest to learn.


Just keep in mind that they don't make you a Superman, and if somebody pulls a gun on you, and if you can't run give them your wallet, and anything else they want.

If they want to lead you away somewhere, that's a different story, it means they want more than your valubles, they want your life.

Then by all means do a take away it's better to die trying, than by doing nothing at all.

Just doing my part.

P.S. I hope the website works for you this time Soda Pop.
 
Military Hand to Hand Combat.

Most of the techniques I've seen from the U.S. Army and U.S.M.C manuals, and was trained with when I was in the service (88-92) was: Advanced Throws, Arm Breaks, Chokes, Strikes and Knife Techniques modified,and taken from Dan Zan Ryu Ju Jitsu's advanced and blackbelt list by Professor Henry Sieshiro Okizowa (deceased) [spelling is probally wrong] founder of the Art. This system has been used since WWII with our Armed forces.

If you watch tapes of the Rangers,SF,SEALS, Marines,as well as Recruits in Boot camp training in Hand to Hand combat. Then watch at least three different Dan Zan Ryu Ju Jitsu Classes you'll see the direct linage to the art.

I had an aquaintance return from U.S.M.C Boot Camp about 6 months ago, who is Familiar with Ju Jitsu. I asked about the Cirriculum for Hand to Hand, he said " it's just a watered down, simplified version, of the Blackbelt list, so you can teach someone with no experiance easier,and quickly. Honestly it put me to sleep because it went to slow for my taste"

I hope this clears thing up a bit.
 
I've taken a couple handgun retention / disarm classes. In both of them, the instructors said that doing a disarm is one step short of suicide. The gun will likely go off. You may well get shot.

As others have said, you MUST be close. If he's 10 feet away, you're not going to do a disarm.

There are many different methods. But the main thing they have in common is that they're awfully hard to describe with just the written word and no pictures of video.

Take a class, then practice and hope that you never actually have to do it for real.
M1911
 
Not to seem the trifling type, but in dealing with the whole "attacker in an airplane" thing, what happens when a stray shot punctures the cabin? In this case, everyone loses consciousness, due to severe depressurization, right? In the worst case, the skin fails, a large hole opens up, and several passengers get sucked out of the plane, right? How would this play into the disarming techniques?
 
In this case, everyone loses consciousness, due to severe depressurization, right?

Only in the movies.

The pumps on a commercial airliner can keep ahead of more bullet holes than most pistols have rounds in the magazine.

The only real dangers on the plane are the chances of an innocent stopping that stray bullet, and the (thankfully remote) chance of the round striking a control line or component.
 
Thank you, Tamara. This myth keeps popping up. Thanks to the no-loads in Hollywierd.

You know, thinking about this hypothetical, and in that context, I might be finding a servicable sap-type weapon, and then relieve the unconcious BG of his weapon after he's out (or on his way to the deck). Speed and surprise are still needed. Check to see if weapon is cocked, etc. Multiple BG's and stealth accomplices would be an issue. Just an option to think about.
 
As usual....Tamara right.

Normal leakage in modern transport aircraft is such that no pressurization difference would be noted with a few shotgun slug holes. Remember, the air is being changed often, the stale air being vented overboard.

Commercial transport aircraft are built with redundancy of electrical, hydraulic and other systems so that a stray bullet hittin a wire or line would cause little concern.

Sam....ATP
 
The above question reminds me when I almost had an exchange of shot to a paramilitary man. When that goblin point at me his M16 at close range (3 meters away)I notice myself that I dock like a boxer or evading the muzle. I figure to get very close to him and grab the M16 and use my karate or arnis disarming technique but that incident was pacified by other armed men, not to go in details anymore.

In my Martial Arts studies, they taught us how to disarm a pistol when poked in any parts of the body especially at the back or front. But I think the best defense is the best reaction you can do which the brain dictates you to do for defense, as the body parts reacts when in danger through the motor nerves via the brain.

We hope that if ever happened to us this situation we can apply something that saves our breath.

Thanks
 
I read all posts and it seems that the BG is 3 feet away from you.
WHAT if the BG is 15 feet away?has gun cocked and aimed at your guts?BUT if he is so close to knock his aim off your guts I would fingers into his throat as hard as possible and put a thumb in his eye as far as possible, then unload his gun and beat the SOB to near death, wipe prints and go home.;)
 
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