Whats the proper way to take a loaded gun from someone?

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This is all fine, but we need to practice this stuff. I plan to take a weapons-retention class. They go over all this and you try it.
 
1. Locking up the cylinder on most revolvers prevents the action from operating, i.e., gun won't shoot if the hammer is not in full cock. Prevents DA firing. This works. I'm here because of this.

2. Same kind of situation re: semi-autos and the slide. If the slide is not in battery, weapon will not fire.

1 and 2 are true for the weapons I have tried them with, but that doesn't mean all weapons, as I certainly have not tested every type around. The slide trick most definitely works on Colt 1911. Cylinder trick works on Smith revolvers. If it doesn't work, what have you lost? If you have followed the other (good) techniques posted here, it gives you a chance, and it sure beats the alternative.

I may go check some others, just to see. Need I remind anyone that this test is best done on a weapon you have checked unloaded?
 
The first thing you need to do is accept the fact that you are probably going to take one. Step 2 (I don't buy into the ninja grab-sidestep simultaneously fantasy) is to get control of the muzzle by any means available (better to lose a hand than to miss the whole thing trying to pull off some Steven Seagal slide trick) and direct it away from your vitals. At that point, it's pretty simple...elbows, knees, and teeth. Alot depends on the positioning. If you're standing face to face...the sidestep actually might be the best choice (preferably towards his weak side). As he swings the muzzle, sidestep and then step into him with your left arm raised (assuming right handed attacker) and go for the throat with your right hand while trapping his shooting hand under your left arm. There are too many variables involved so the best advice is...train, train, train.
 
This is an incredibly stupid subject of conversation to be engaged in! I don't know about you cats, but I can't think of anything dumber than the idea of further provoking an incident with an armed assailant! Give him your stinkin' wallet, for the love of Pete!

That little rant aside, I think you should study Akido. This type of scenario is right up their alley. I took a lecture a few weeks ago in my Iaido class. It was given by an Akido sensei, and it was all about disarming a samurai's kitana using your bare hands. This could easily be fitted to work in a firearm confrontation.

The trick is, you have to grip the thumb of the assailant in the proper manner. Once the thumb is immobilized, the slightest twist of the wrist becomes dreadfully painful, and the assailant becomes your (female dog). Akido can teach you all about this.

Again, I must reiterate this very important point: If someone comes up to you and points a gun in your face, GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT! No money, no home, no physical comfort in this world is worth getting killed over.

Oh, and uh,
Kudos on the Trent Reznor quote.
 
You know what? I am afraid of bees. I am afraid of them because I know they won't hesitate to sting me, even if it means their death. When robbers start to learn that they will be met with resistance from their victims, then they will be less likely to rob. Everyone should always fight back. You might be killed anyway if you start to comply.
 
Well FM 21-150 (ca. 1954) has some nice looking Pistol disarms with photos, dance steps and dotted lines of movement for Pistol in Front, Pistol in Back, and Pistol in Back of Neck.

Theres also sections for unarmed defense against bayonet (fixed) and knife.

The current version of FM 21-150 doesn't cover unarmed against pistol (guess it's not something that soldiers encounter anymore), but they do provide some generel guidelines:
Unarmed Defense. Unarmed defense against an armed opponent should be a last resort. If it is necessary, the defender's course of action includes:

(1) Move the body out of the line of attack of the weapon. Step off the line of attack or redirect the attack of the weapon so that it clears the body.

(2) Control the weapon. Maintain control of the attacking arm by securing the weapon, hand, wrist, elbow, or arm by using joint locks, if possible.

(3) Stun the attacker with an effective counterattack. Counterattack should be swift and devastating. Take the vigor out of the attacker with a low, unexpected kick, or break a locked joint of the attacking arm. Strikes to motor nerve centers are effective stuns, as are skin tearing, eye gouging, and attacking of the throat. The defender can also take away the attacker's balance.

(4) Ground the attacker. Take the attacker to the ground where the defender can continue to disarm or further disable him.

(5) Disarm the attacker. Break the attacker's locked joints. Use leverage or induce pain to disarm the attacker and finish him or to maintain physical control.

c. Precaution. Do not focus full attention on the weapon because the attacker has other body weapons to use. There may even be other attackers that you have not seen.
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You know what? I am afraid of bees. I am afraid of them because I know they won't hesitate to sting me, even if it means their death. When robbers start to learn that they will be met with resistance from their victims, then they will be less likely to rob. Everyone should always fight back. You might be killed anyway if you start to comply.
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Wouldn't natural selection indicate that, after the robbers who aren't willing to risk death stop robbing, that all those who DO rob are the ones willing to die/kill for what you've got?

And knowing that they're likely to face an armed resistor, would pre-emptivly kill you, rather than risk possible resistance? Smart strategy says that if you know you're going up against an armed opponent, you strike first from ambush before they can react, thus negating any advantage the enemy may have.

That's the way it goes down in many third world contries now. For instance, in South Africa, many people are murdered by car-jackers because the thieves know that many people are arming their cars with various lethal anti-theft devices, thus you have to kill the occupants to prevent the devices activation.

Somewhat chicken & egg. Which came first? Robbers who kill because of resistance, or Resistance because of Robber who kill?

In your home, resist. On a street corner, give 'em the wallet/car keys.
 
While back in California, carjackers were killing resistors. Some successfully resisted but others were killed. Word was put out by the "protectors" that the safest was to not resist. Killings went up.

No guarentees if you resist but if you dont, odds are worse against you.

Sam
 
A trick I've used twice (succesfully both times) is to fake an asthma attack, and while bent over, pull it out.

Worked fine. The look on their faces were KODAK moments. :)
 
Samurai:
This is an incredibly stupid subject of conversation to be engaged in! I don't know about you cats, but I can't think of anything dumber than the idea of further provoking an incident with an armed assailant! Give him your stinkin' wallet, for the love of Pete!
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I would IF I thought that the robbers were motivated "rational-choice." I agree that sometimes robbers are interested in only money (and minimum risk) and would take the money and run. However, it is also entirely possible that this could be a gang member intent on robbery AND murder or a thug on drugs too intoxicated to weigh risk and benefit or even a psycopath who is only interested in hurting, not the money.

As always, my main goal would be to escape and evade, not confront. To that end, I might toss my wallet, money or what have you. Or as the situation warrants (say, I'm with someone who cannot run with me) I may distract the robber and take my chances disabling him with whatever I have.

Your argument of "not provoking" the assailant seems eerily too similar to the "Don't resist the rape - you will only make him angry" fallacy.
That little rant aside, I think you should study Akido. This type of scenario is right up their alley. I took a lecture a few weeks ago in my Iaido class. It was given by an Akido sensei, and it was all about disarming a samurai's kitana using your bare hands. This could easily be fitted to work in a firearm confrontation.

The trick is, you have to grip the thumb of the assailant in the proper manner. Once the thumb is immobilized, the slightest twist of the wrist becomes dreadfully painful, and the assailant becomes your (female dog). Akido can teach you all about this.
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Having studied Aikido for some time, forgive me if I disagree. Most of Aikido's techniques originate from Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. Most Aiki-Jujutsu techniques were NOT about "disarming a samurai's" Kantana. Only a complete idiot would attempt - EMPTY HANDED - to take a sword away from someone who devoted all his time to the use of the sword. It's beyond futile. No, most Aiki-Jujutsu techniques were about 1) sword retention (meaning preventing someone from taking your sword in close quarters) and 2) preventing your opponent from unsheathing his sword in close quarters. The operative term is CLOSE QUARTERS - we are talking about such a close distance that the sword could not be easily brought into bear.

The way knife and gun disarms are taught in most Aikido classes is pure fantasy. If you don't believe me, find yourself an Aikido blackbelt, get a magic marker and pretend that it is a knife (or a gun) and see how many times you can mark him while he tries to use Kotegaeshi (wrist lock) you. There is no doubt that there are SOME Aikidoka who might be good enough to do this, but the vast majority I've seen (and I've seen quite a few) is unable to.

This is not to say that Aikdo is useless. Its techniques are quite sound in weapon retention that can translate very nicely to handgun retention, for example. Unfortunately, this is not recognized by many Aikidoka who insist on spending most of their time in practicing big circle techniques to "disarm swords."

For real (still extremely chancy) gun disarms, stick to folks who actually train with guns (legitimate combatives instructors).

nbk2000:
For instance, in South Africa, many people are murdered by car-jackers because the thieves know that many people are arming their cars with various lethal anti-theft devices, thus you have to kill the occupants to prevent the devices activation.

Somewhat chicken & egg. Which came first? Robbers who kill because of resistance, or Resistance because of Robber who kill?
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From what I observed, it most certainly is the case of the latter (resistance because of killings). One unfortunate facet of crime in South Africa nowadays is the association of murder and extreme violence with just about any crime (car jacking, mugging, rape, etc.). If I had to guess without real information, I'd say that the main reason for this is the extremely low chance of apprehension, in part due to the breakdown of the policing system (low morale, training, funding, etc.). When a criminal is unlikely to be caught otherwise, he is probably likely to eliminate the only possible witness (the victim). I am sure that racial and political motivations play a role too (if the continuing murders of Afrikanner farmers and a lack of response to such from the government are any indicaton).

The anti-theft devices (including a car-borne flame thrower!) are really desperate measures to protect BOTH life and property, not just property.

Skorzeny
 
Skorenzy:

You may be right. Having only recieved the one lecture in Akido, I'm no expert on the art's many facets. However, the disarming techniques presented to us by the Akido blackbelt were quite practical. True, many of the stops (dealing with draw prevention) are quite useless against a samurai, because the samurai already know how to avoid the maneuver. (The sixth kata I learned dealt with breaking the wrist of a man who reaches for my kitana.)

No, what I'm talking about are the strike preventions. The interception of at attacker's weapon during a strike, accompanied by a throw and a stripping of the weapon. If done properly, I do not yet know of a suitable defense.

And, incidentally, we did try the magic marker thing with this guy. He recieved a one-inch mark on the webbing between the thumb and index finger, and he got the marker away from us. He then proceeded to draw a mustache on the poor sap who attacked him with the marker!



Now, for all you other people who insist that it's better to die in the name of self defense than to lose twenty bucks and a trip to the DMV, please kill yourselves now. The gene pool doesn't need you soaking up the chlorine! One day they will start a section of the Darwin awards on people like you.

You may effect change in the way robbers think about their victims. But in order to do this, the first hundred-or-so victims have to die fighting. Let he who would be the first "example" to the criminals of the world kindly raise his hand.
 
I am figuring to shoot him/her FIRST, then take the gun from their now-dead hand...

ANY BG who points a gun at me intentionally, for ANY reason had BETTER use it quick, 'cause if they hesitate, I'll shoot them, 2 COM and 1 to the head...

then I'll yell at them to "cease and desist"...

THEN I'll tell MY SIDE of the story (now the ONLY side) to the local PD... (in the presence of my lawyer...)
 
I was thinking more along the lines of

If you were sitting in a plane and a Hi-Jacker was walking down the aisle with a gun HOW DO YOU RIP IT OUT OF HIS HANDS!!!! Some of you have giving good advice on twisting wrists and that pretty much was what I was asking. I know enough about Semi Auto's that I would know how to Jam one/Dump the Mag and maybe only be fighting over a gun with one bullet in it.

I think knowing how to twist the Wrist of Human being to get their hand to drop a gun, is more of a Martial Arts question, but Its nice to know a few tricks in this world.
 
I took an unarmed self-defense course where taking a pistol away was discussed and practiced quite a bit. There are a couple of caveats: First, you pretty much need to be within six feet or so. Second, if the guy is facing you from the front, he must not be in some retention position--extended arm, like the Bad Guys in the movies (but ain't that where most of them train?).

So, for a guy facing you: "Clear the body" means moving either (or both) a bit sideways and low as you advance. "Control the weapon" means bringing BOTH hands up to the gun. Left hand behind the gun; right hand on the gun. Twist up and right, breaking the trigger finger. "Attack" means knee to crotch at same time as grabbing gun. After that, it's your choice.

If you're in the classic "gun to head", it's the same style. Snap your head out of the direct line of fire. (So it kinks your neck. So?) You may well lose an eardrum if/when the gun fires. So? Simultaneously bringing your hands to the gun, have at it as stated above.

I note that some burn on a hand from a revolver is much better than a bullet in you, from said revolver. A ruined eardrum is better than a bullet through your head. There ain't no freebies.

If a pistol is jammed into your back, it's more problemmatical. However, a quick spin clears your body; a simultaneous elbow strike to the BG's head can give you time to "Control the weapon" and complete the attack.

Always remember you're 0.2 seconds ahead of an opponent when YOU initiate the action. And ya gotta learn to "play through pain".

:), Art
 
If the pistol has a cocked hammer you can always try to get something (finger or webbing between thumb and first finger) between hammer and firing pin. I might smart a tad, but nothin' worth writing home about.
 
Seeker, that might help in the event of missing the "Control the gun" part of the deal, or if you wound up somehow grappling for the gun. It would take a lot of time to get a finger or thumb to the correct spot in an assault on the Bad Guy, compared to other ways.

Our instructor, in one instance, completely knocked the revolver from the hand of a highly dubious, somewhat hostile Police Sergeant, using the frontal attack I described above. The Sarge claimed he'd gotten off a shot before losing the (real) pistol. A man in the back of the room who had caught the "unmanned missile" pointed out, "Uh, Sarge, it's still cocked."

:), Art
 
Sodapop,

In the example you gave (BG in aisle of plane), there are too many variables to give you a specific answer. Generally, a successful gun takeaway prevents the firing of the weapon (several methods already discussed) while causing the BG to release said weapon or taking it by some combination of brute force/leverage.

I have only done it one time, for real. BG had finger inside trigger guard of S&W revolver at about two feet or less. with the hammer down in DA. I locked the cylinder by grabbing it tightly and twisted the weapon so that the BG's trigger finger would be broken if he did not release it. Basically, this was one motion. I could not sidestep, and had no time to draw available weapon(s) given the time requirements of the deal. I certainly DO NOT advise this as normal procedure. It probably took a few years off the tail end of my time. You just do what you have to do. Knowledge and practice help a whole bunch, but you have to be fast. A failed attempt will almost certainly end up with the loser dead.
 
During a takeaway is not the time to be figuring out your plan of action. As Art said, you have about a 0.2 sec jump on the gunholder. You have a lot to do in that 0.2 sec.

The training I got, and my partner used, was such that one could not practice with a gun having a trigger guard. Broken, mangled trigger finger would be the result if practiced vigorously.

Sam
 
How about Tickling?

What kind of Feather under the arm pit? Goose? Chicken?

I might land a good kiss on the BG and see if he drops the gun:)
 
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