Whats the difference?

Kool,

No need to apologize. "Canned" means different things to different people. "Hunting" means different things to different people. Hunting is regulated by the states (and fed in some cases) and I figger they right the rules; they make the definitions.

I've played around with the idea of trappin' hogs. I might shoot pen trapped hogs. No big deal. I won't claim to have hunted them, since that doesn't fit the definition set by our state.
 
Interesting thread -- thanks, Brent.

One could argue that it's the whole idea that hunting is a "sport" that creates most of these dilemmas... as various people have pointed out here, the notion of "fair chase" goes back just a century or so, and why? Because the elite, of whom Theodore Roosevelt was a fine specimen, wanted to go hunting, not for subsistence, but for pleasure: they didn't need the meat, but they enjoyed the experience.

Defining hunting as a sport, and inventing rules such as "fair chase" to make it a "sporting" activity, did several things, I think. First, it was useful as a conservation device, a way of discouraging overhunting (think of those 19th century bison "hunts," from trains and whatnot, which pretty well wiped them out); second, emphasizing the chase was a way of making it look less like mere killing for fun, which is sort of icky, ethically speaking, for most people.

And I think another consequence may have been to give that elite, for whom hunting in this way was an entirely optional, "luxury" activity, the moral high ground over non-elite folks for whom it was still a subsistence activity. Hunt over bait? Run deer with dogs? Shoot caribou while they're swimming a river? Oh, ick, ick, ick!! Completely unethical, but what can else you expect from the lower classes? :rolleyes:

It's ironic that much of what we're now questioning -- canned hunts, guided hunts for exotic species, hunting animals selectively bred for trophy size -- is available only to the modern version of that elite...

And if contemporary subsistence hunters find the emphasis on "fair chase" a bit annoying, a bit precious, I'd say they have good reason to feel that way.

Right, Brent? ;)
 
I guess if I sat and thought about it there are two ways to look at it, and depending on which camp you are in there are two ways to go about it.

Let's say for the sake of this post I am planning on going hunting in a national park out west. Some place that in my particular case is no where near me. I have two methods of hunting this park. I can do some research on guides and book a trip, or I can be a purist and go it alone.

First method. I call the better business bureau and get the names of guides who work in the area. Contact them for information about a trip. Once I get the information and pricing. I select a guide book the trip show up and go hunting. The guide will tell me what I need to bring and take me to the areas I need to be in order to make a kill.

The second way isn't so easy. First I would need to research the eating habits of the game I'm going after in that particular park. Then I need to find out just what areas that mast grows in climate wise, elevation etc. Then I need to order topo maps so I can see those areas. I also need to determine what kind of access is availabe to the areas in which I am interested in hunting. Now I need to research weather, I have no guide to tell me what to bring so I'm on my own rember. I need to do this because it is this time of year weather in the parks out west is unpredictable. After doing this I need to check my gun, ammo and other gear. Now I'm ready to go. Once I get to the area I have pre-selected I set off with my maps and compass hoping the area has some well used animal trails and that my flora research will pay off, allowing me to find the mast crops I need to increase my chances of getting a kill.

As I sit and read this I have two reactions. If I score a kill using the first method. I will be absolutely thrilled, it will be the hunt of a lifetime for someone like me. If I use the second method I not only have the satisfaction of the kill, I have the added satisfaction of knowing that I did it all on my own. But in all honestly I would choose the first option. As much as I would love to believe I'm Daniel Boone, the reality is I'm a civilian. I spend as much time outdoors as I possiblly can, that is no where near the amount of outdoor expiernce needed to attempt a hunt alone in the parks out west. Here where I live? No problem. And at the end of the day I will most likely feel I haven't cheated or been unethical.

I'm also looking at the fact I have had to save for this. When selecting a guide I'm going for one who has a reputation for getting his clients meat, or trophies, or both. There is a good chance that guide stacks the odds in his favor. I'm spending a lot of money to go. I don't want to come back empty handed. I can rent a car and just rubber neck if I want a view. I spent the money to get a kill, to go on a hunt. Is that wrong?
 
Well, what others do is up to them, but...

If I'm HUNTING, I don't want a canned hunt.

Even so, I go up every once in a while and shoot a buffalo for a fee. All I'm doing is buying meat that I have to shoot myself, rather than buying a beef. I prefer the taste, and I don't call it "Hunting".

If I have mice in the house, I'm not into it for the challenge. I'm in it to rid the house of mice, so I set traps.

I love calling coyotes with predator calls. It's my prefered method to get them. That said, if they're a problem for someone raising chickens, traps are more effective for eliminating the offending animal. Why work at calling and killing maybe 50 coyotes in an area when a trap will get the offending critter without doubt?

I've never placed bait to draw in an animal. However, I HAVE hunted alfalfa fields with a bow for antelope. Seems fair enough to me.

I hunt for my own reasons, and my reasons might depend on what sort of hunt I'm on and why I'm on it. I also allow...no, I encourage others to do the same as long as they're within the law.
 
Boy Hogdogs you really like to stir it up! Since I live in the BIG state of TEXAS I also frequent and am a member of Texas Hunting Forum and there is a thread there today that has gone off the deep end on this type of conversation. It is in regards to a man taking two bucks that total over 500"! Yep that is right 500"! This morning when I first saw it it was 4 pages and when I got home from work and looked at it it was at 22 pages and growing fast. Whew!

I will say there are a few things that I am not crazy about and I stated them in the thread you mentioned earlier...is this a shooter buck...but again I will state that as long as the game is harvested legally I am happy for your success!

Good luck sorting out the hunting problems in our country! :D
 
I simply think more of myself than I do of them personally, even when I end up skunked.
Click to expand...

Way to go - it SHOULD be about the hunt, not about the kill, whether four-footed or winged......hunting is one thing, killing is another - IF you can combine the two legally, ethically and morally.....good for you
 
DeerHunter, I guess I have had lots of impromptu training in stirrin the stink stick since I first hit the net in about '95... Lots of readin' professional pot stirrers...:D
Brent
 
The second way isn't so easy. First I would need to research the eating habits of the game I'm going after in that particular park. Then I need to find out just what areas that mast grows in climate wise, elevation etc. Then I need to order topo maps so I can see those areas. I also need to determine what kind of access is availabe to the areas in which I am interested in hunting. Now I need to research weather, I have no guide to tell me what to bring so I'm on my own rember. I need to do this because it is this time of year weather in the parks out west is unpredictable. After doing this I need to check my gun, ammo and other gear. Now I'm ready to go. Once I get to the area I have pre-selected I set off with my maps and compass hoping the area has some well used animal trails and that my flora research will pay off, allowing me to find the mast crops I need to increase my chances of getting a kill.
Click to expand...

Why in the heck would you need to do anything of the sort?

If I have access I need nothing else, If I can see the borders on a map I need no more info, Elevation means nothing really, on foot you either make it or you do not, and go home.

Deer live in the world, if yo go to where the deer are, there's no need for more research... Unless that's just your bag -o- beans and you like tootin. I reckon I like your philosophy about it, but If I had that kind of time to go scouting I'd be in heaven.... :)
 
Hogdogs, thanks for this thread. I particularly like #37 post by Big Bill. IMO, more importantly than the underlined paragraph titled 'Legal Versus Ethical' is the paragraph right below it titled 'Divided We Fall'. That paragraph should be a 'sticky'. I think when us hunters start criticizing the legal hunting tactics of others maybe the mods should suggest to the criticizer to read sticky. Are we for certain our ancestors didn`t bait when hunting? Are we sure they didn`t throw speers or shoot bows from the tree tops at their quarry? I`m not. I`d rather think they most likely did both. Back then they weren`t to concerned about who was doing what next door or who was the most macho in the way they hunted. They were worried about one thing, survival. We`ve got hunting laws in place today that enables different tactics of hunting various game so as to maintain our game and keep hunting safe. Laws vary from state to state. Thats whats nice about the 'good ole US of A' if I don`t like a tactic thats legal in my or your state, I don`t have to hunt using that tactic. Also I don`t/shouldn`t criticize any legal tactics cause the anti-gun/hunting organization scan these forums and I wouldn`t want to be guilty of supplying them with ammo, they stretch for. to stop what I love to do.
 
Hunting preference aside, the Wildlife people are trying to keep the population of whatever species healthy.
In N.C. they are tring to figure out how to get people to kill more deer because the population is growing at a rate that needs to be checked.
Baiting is legal here and has been. Despite all the unfairness attributed to it by some, it seems to have been no help in slowing the population growth
 
Really hunting is separated into 2 categories
1. Hunt for Sport
2. Hunt for Food
Personally I grew up with one foot in each camp. I could survive without putting game meat on my table, but I wouldn't enjoy it as much. Also I enjoy the sport of hunting as much as I do anything else, to an extent. I've hunted 13 years now and have never shot a buck. All my deer have been does. In fact I've never even shot AT a buck. Does it bother me, not really. I've seen plenty in the field. I've just pulled the short end of the stick when it comes to seeing them during the right season, and at the right time. Oh well, eventually I'll shoot one. What sticks in my craw more than anything, is the individuals that feel "canned hunting" animals is some type of higher form of hunting because they can shoot bigger or rarer animals. It's not my cup of tea, so I won't do it, but don't come bragging to me with you 5 year old 14 point when you do. Just enjoy the hunt and enjoy the meal.

As far as not using as many advantages. I hunt in 40 to 50% orange, more for my safety than anything. I don't use attractants as in gun season in PA you really don't need them. Over the years I've become less thrilled with shooting a animal with the typical shotgun/rifle. A couple years ago I got into muzzleloader and use a T/C 50 cal. Hawken. I love it for as much the challenge as the nostalgia of it. Just a couple weeks ago I bought a 454 revolver to use for deer and bear this year. Again for mainly the challenge. Does that mean I'm better than someone with a $1500 rifle/scope combination. Absolutely not. That's just not how I roll ;)
 
Quote:

Deer live in the world, if yo go to where the deer are, there's no need for more research... Unless that's just your bag -o- beans and you like tootin. I reckon I like your philosophy about it, but If I had that kind of time to go scouting I'd be in heaven....

Well I was talking about going someplace I have never been before. I know here in WNC, if there is a really good mast crop on the high ridges and you park your self along the edge of a field in natural blind, or slow walk along a river, all your gonna do is have a nice walk. We all know that in the wild the deer are where the food are, regardless of where you live. Nature determines where that food is going to be every year, as we aren't planting feed crops to fatten them up. It is just me. I'd like to know something about the area I'm going to hunt before I get there, esp if I have never been there before. If I'm going to drive 2/3 of the country to go on what for me would be a dream hunt. I'm not going to chance it. Like you said, that's just me and I too would just absolutely love to have the kind of time needed to scout like I described!
 
I've hunted 13 years now and have never shot a buck. All my deer have been does. In fact I've never even shot AT a buck. Does it bother me, not really.
Click to expand...

I live in an area where bucks are rare,and not many people see them.Last November was my first hunt ever,I was taken out by my father in law and a big buck happened to show up and I got him.Hunting has alot to do with luck I guess too.Now to fair chase.I just completed hunter's safety and we talked about that one.Firing from a car is not fair chase,using a machine gun etc is not fair chase.The hunting laws haven't been changed in awhile,because night vision is legal here,and all kinds of scopes and guns are getting better to take them from 500 yards,which I think that the laws should be reformed.Maybe limit hunters to 4X scopes or less,I don't know.
 
also,I think about other things expressed in hunter's safety class.And one of them is what aldo leopold said"ethical behavior is doing the right thing when noone is watching,and even when doing the wrong thing is legal".Now take two scenerios,one is legal,one is not:Legal-shooting as many deer as bag limit is,even if that means shooting only trophy racks in a designated penned in area for deer,even if your bag limit is 5 deer.Illegal-a starving family's father harvests a deer without a license.But which one of these scenerios is right?
 
I live in an area where bucks are rare,and not many people see them.Last November was my first hunt ever,I was taken out by my father in law and a big buck happened to show up and I got him.Hunting has alot to do with luck I guess too.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Practice, preparation, and a good dose of luck are all part of the equation of a good hunt.

Congrats on the buck BTW. Any deer is a trophy if you worked hard for it.
I was lucky that when I shot my first doe my grandfather, who had just pushed out a big stand pines for me, and my father were both standing right next to me. A group of 20 deer came out in to the clearing I was watching right as him and my father were planning another push. Now that's what I call luck!
 
As far as not using as many advantages. I hunt in 40 to 50% orange, more for my safety than anything. I don't use attractants as in gun season in PA you really don't need them. Over the years I've become less thrilled with shooting a animal with the typical shotgun/rifle. A couple years ago I got into muzzleloader and use a T/C 50 cal. Hawken. I love it for as much the challenge as the nostalgia of it. Just a couple weeks ago I bought a 454 revolver to use for deer and bear this year. Again for mainly the challenge. Does that mean I'm better than someone with a $1500 rifle/scope combination. Absolutely not. That's just not how I roll
Click to expand...

I would love to get a deer revolver or muzzleloader.I shoot revolvers alot,but don't have anything over 4" or .357,I would like a 6" .44 magnum.I just shot my first muzzleloader a few days ago at a 100 yard or so range with a half load of powder,and man do those balls move!It hit in a split second with a huge puff of dirt with just a half load.I can't afford anything more than what I have now though.My brother gave me his .444 marling with a nice 40mm scope,and I had it sighted in for free with a laser at the local sports store,and I can barely afford ammo for it as it is,I can't afford another gun,so that's what i'm using this year.
 
Black powder is alot of fun as is shooting a revolver. Save up for what you want and hunt for bargains. It may take a while, but when you get the money and find a deal it makes it all the more worthwhile. I don't have a whole lot of extra money at my disposal so I understand what you mean.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top