What would you have done?

[rpseraph]

I am a person who reflects and reviews choices to decide whether I made the best choices. I thought I would get your opinion as well!

Last night I was driving home with the family and my 2 yo daughter, who has a cold, starts coughing and vomits ALL OVER herself. I find the nearest exit, pull way over, throw on the hazards and my wife and I start cleaning up her and the car. I am cleaning her up, switching clothes, changing diapers, etc when someone pulls up behind me. Peek-a-boo, its the Sheriff (and partner.) He asked how I was doing, if they could help (he didn't want to clean up any puke ) The van doors were open and my boys were yelling about "the Police are here!" and so the partner pokes his head it to say hi to the kids (maybe he was checking out the situation, idk.) We packed up and took off, Sheriff took off as well.

I was, of course, carrying concealed. 3:30 IWB, button down shirt and a light jacket. XDM 9mm Compact with Hornady Critical Def for those that will ask, haha. I was sure I was concealed, even though it was obnoxiously windy. Do you ALWAYS declare to the police that you are a CCW holder? Or only if you are pulled over? Or only if they ask you to step out? I have previously handed them my CCW license along with my drivers license but this situation didn't require that. So what do you all think? I just keep thinking that all it would take is a gust of wind in the wrong direction and I brandish and situation gets weird.

 

[dahermit]

I would have told them that I was armed and had a CCW permit. Here in Michigan, if you are stopped, you are required to tell them you are armed and have a permit. In your case, it was somewhat ambiguous (you were not stopped by the police), but if you had announced, there would have been no basis for the cops ever to say you failed to announce. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Wag]

I'm an idiot. I voted before reading your post. In retrospect, I'll say that I would have done as you did. They were just checking on you and probably had a "that was gross" discussion as they drove away.

But if you're pulled over, yes, I would declare, even if your state doesn't require it.

--Wag--

 

[riffraff]

Where i live its not required, i find it awkward to bring that sort of thing up as it can almost be taken as a threat.. I have had one officer note rifle cases on my back seat and he asked if i minded waiting outside the car while he ran my license.

 

[FlyFish]

Here in NH we have constitutional carry (licenses are optional for reciprocity purposes) and no duty to inform. I've fortunately never been stopped since I started carrying some years ago, but I've given the matter considerable thought, and decided that I would inform the officer, keeping my hands in plain sight on the wheel, and likely saying something like "Sir, I know I'm not required to do this, but as a courtesy I'd like to inform you that I'm properly licensed to carry a concealed firearm and I am now carrying a concealed firearm. Please let me know how you would like to proceed." I figured if our positions were reversed, I'd appreciate that. YMMV

 

[Pahoo]

What does Minnesota law say ???

If the LEO's asked to see your license, and nothing else is in play, it's a good courtesy to show them your permit, as well. Unless I'm missing some detail, I'd say you did nothing wrong. You were not breaking the law and took steps to be safe. As far as a breeze exposing your carry, then that might change. Again, under your circumstances, you did nothing wrong.

Taking another scenario, if you drive by a LEO, directing traffic do you feel obligated to show him your permit ???

This subject has been well discussed in this forum and it all depends on the circumstances and state laws. Even in states where you are only required to show, upon request it's always a good courtesy to show your permit.

Be Safe !!!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I would have told them that I was armed and had a CCW permit. Here in Michigan, if you are stopped, you are required to tell them you are armed and have a permit. In your case, it was somewhat ambiguous (you were not stopped by the police), but if you had announced, there would have been no basis for the cops ever to say you failed to announce. Better safe th

And, once again, we should remember that we have 50 states plus the District of Columbia. dahermit, Michigan state law requires you to inform a police officer if you are carrying when there is an official interaction. According to www.handgunlaw.us Minnesota does NOT require permit holders to notify. Since there was no requirement to notify and the situation was not one where the police were likely to be frisking anyone and find the gun, I see no reason whatsoever to bring guns into a conversation about a child tossing its cookies in the back of the family van.

 

[5whiskey]

I voted no. I am also a cop. I don't hyperventilate if I happen to be in the presence of a private citizen with a firearm. While it would hurt nothing to notify them that you are a CCH, in that situation I don't think it really mattered one way or the other.

Good points by AB. States vary on requirements to notify LEO if you are armed. My state has such a requirement. With that being said, this requirement will likely only pertain to when you have been officially stopped or seized by law enforcement*. What occurred there was a voluntary encounter in which law enforcement was checking up on a motorist. You were really under no obligation to notify them of anything IMO, at least based on your description of events.

*I believe that if this were run entirely through the court system, the courts would find that no private citizen has a duty to notify an officer that they lawfully possess a CCH when they are in the Officer's presence voluntarily in almost any state that allows for CCH. While this is my informed opinion, that is all it is. It is obviously not any binding legal precedent. It also does not mean that there is no idiot out there won't try to charge you for it anyway. And while you may not be convicted, you will still spend time, money, and effort fighting it.

 

[NoSecondBest]

Here in NY they already know you have a permit when they pull you over. In NY, there is no one legally owning a handgun without a permit....period. I was only asked once if I had one in the car and I replied that there wasn't. He accepted that and left (he was just telling me a light was out...the car was one week old. I thanked him for letting me know about it).

 

[Bob Willman]

And, once again, we should remember that we have 50 states plus the District of Columbia. dahermit, Michigan state law requires you to inform a police officer if you are carrying when there is an official interaction. According to www.handgunlaw.us Minnesota does NOT require permit holders to notify. Since there was no requirement to notify and the situation was not one where the police were likely to be frisking anyone and find the gun, I see no reason whatsoever to bring guns into a conversation about a child tossing its cookies in the back of the family van.

My sense is that this was not an official interaction with the officers.
Last weekend I was demonstrating blacksmithing at the local museum in the museum blacksmith shop. A couple of sheriff deputies stopped by the shop and we chatted for probably 20 minutes. I felt no duty to inform.

 

[zukiphile]

And, once again, we should remember that we have 50 states plus the District of Columbia.

I voted no. I am also a cop. I don't hyperventilate if I happen to be in the presence of a private citizen with a firearm.

I felt no duty to inform.

Yet, your reasonable sense of propriety (and it does seem entirely reasonable to me) may not be the correct measure if you are stopped by a PO without 5Whiskey's sense of equanimity in a state that demands notification. There is no substitute for knowing how your jurisdiction works.

I too think it could seem confrontational to a PO to notify, and I think the better rule would be to require disclosure if the po asks. Remember the fellow in the Canton, Ohio video just a few years ago. He was a passenger who kept trying to notify the PO but was told to shut up. When he finally did notify, the PO lost it.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Where I live and typically travel, I am not required to notify/inform.
So, if the conversation stays at the level of, "Everything all right? Need some help?" ... I'm not going to mention it.

But if they start getting more nosy, asking for ID, etc., then I'd probably go with a preemptive notification and ask how they wanted to proceed.

I've been there in the past. None of the LEOs asked me to do anything other than keep my hands off the handgun. None of them seemed to have any desire to disarm me.

Only one requested to see the handgun, and that was a game warden that was checking me out because she thought I might have been spotlighting for elk with my headlights. (I was creeping along a mountain road, trying to get a better cell signal.) She, I assume, just wanted to see what it was and make a mental note, as there had been some poaching in the area the day before. Showing her was a bit awkward, though. I was carrying a 7.5" Super Blackhawk at 4 o'clock, and driving a compact pickup; but she didn't want me to get out. She had to open the door and damn near crawl on my lap, while I was trying to twist around to make it visible, in order to see the revolver.

But, around here, most LEOs (especially game wardens - even outside of hunting seasons) automatically assume that everyone is carrying, or at least has a firearm in their vehicle.

 

[44 AMP]

Consider this (and this doesn't consider if you have a legal obligation to inform)

What if you don't inform the officer, and they see the gun? yes, you may be with an officer who freaks out when you inform them you are legally armed, but if you don't inform them, and they find out, you could be freaking out even the reasonable ones. At the least, you have upped their tension level, and tense people are more likely to make mistakes...

Sometimes even innocent things seem suspicious if you don't know all the details. And the officer NEVER knows all the details, at first, anyway.

 

[DaleA]

There is no substitute for knowing how your jurisdiction works.

This^^^.
Very good advice. If you're going to carry you really need to know what the LAW is in your area. This applies to everybody...if you don't know go look it up. As Aguila Blanca mentions it's can be different in different states.

Minnesota says:

Q: Do I have to disclose to a peace officer that I am a permit holder and carrying a firearm?
A: Yes, upon request of a peace officer, a permit holder must disclose to the officer whether or not the permit holder is currently carrying a firearm.

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/administrative/Pages/Permit-to-Carry-FAQ.aspx


From your account they never asked. You handled it just the way I would have if I were in a similar situation.

Just to add controversy to the thread Minnesota has some "notoriety" in this area:
The Philando Castile shooting. The police officer was tried, not convicted,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile
and
The Justine Damond shooting. The police officer's trial just started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond

 

[7.62 man]

Indiana law does not require one to disclose possession of a firearm on contact with Law Enforcement.
With the police cars having computers in them most of the time if you get pulled over the officer knows if you have a CCL before he gets to the door of your car.
But if I get pulled over or have a confrontation with an officer I inform them if I am carrying.

 

[davidsog]

If the wind had exposed your weapon then it could have gotten complicated. Officer Safety dictates tell them. Florida does not require you to inform officers either. I always keep my hands in plain view and inform the officer I am a licensed and carrying.

Never has it been an issue. Every time the Officer has thanked me for doing that.

You want to see Police get excited, let them discover your undisclosed weapon on their own.

 

[davidsog]

What if you don't inform the officer, and they see the gun? yes, you may be with an officer who freaks out when you inform them you are legally armed, but if you don't inform them, and they find out, you could be freaking out even the reasonable ones. At the least, you have upped their tension level, and tense people are more likely to make mistakes...

Understanding how Officers are trained is key to a good outcome. Hands Kill. They are trained to watch your hands.

Simply keep them in sight and do not move them unless the officer tells you. It is that simple.

When he does tell you, move slowly and verbalize where/what you are reaching to get.

Follow his commands and keep your [hand]s in plain view.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Even states that require notification don't all require it the same. DaleA cites a FAQ from the Minnesota Department of Public safety, but that's not the law. The law says:

(a) The holder of a permit to carry must have the permit card and a driver's license, state identification card, or other government-issued photo identification in immediate possession at all times when carrying a pistol and must display the permit card and identification document upon lawful demand by a peace officer, as defined in section 626.84, subdivision 1. A violation of this paragraph is a petty misdemeanor. The fine for a first offense must not exceed $25. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this paragraph is not subject to forfeiture.

For comparison, Michigan (as mentioned by dahermit) law says:

28.425f (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

The "who is stopped" criterion is new to me. Most states (whose laws I have reviewed on this, which is not all) seem to make it more generally along the lines of having to inform when "contacted in an official capacity" or something along those lines. Given the rather specific language of the Michigan law, it seems clear that in the situation described by rpseraph on the OP, the Michigan law wold NOT require him to inform. He was not stopped by a police officer. He stopped of his own accord to deal with a situation, and the police wandered onto the scene after he was stopped. They didn't stop him.

www.handgunlaw.us opens up to a map of the United States. Click on any state and it opens a new tab or window with information about gun laws in that state. One of the sections for each state is a discussion of whether or not notification when carrying is required. Handgunlaw usually starts of with a simple "Yes" or "No," followed by a citation of the actual law involved.


For comparison, let's look at how another "must inform" state expresses the requirement in the law. It took me three or four tries to find another "must inform" state, but I came upon Ohio:

Title 29: 2923.16.
(E) No person who has been issued a concealed handgun license or who is an active duty member of the armed forces of the United States and is carrying a valid military identification card and documentation of successful completion of firearms training that meets or exceeds the training requirements described in division (G)(1) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, who is the driver or an occupant of a motor vehicle that is stopped as a result of a traffic stop or a stop for another law enforcement purpose or is the driver or an occupant of a commercial motor vehicle that is stopped by an employee of the motor carrier enforcement unit for the purposes defined in section 5503.34 of the Revised Code, and who is transporting or has a loaded handgun in the motor vehicle or commercial motor vehicle in any manner, shall do any of the following:

So Ohio is both broader and more specific than Michigan. It's not just stops, it's also other law enforcement purposes. It's not just the driver but specifically any occupant of the vehicle. And it's not limited to police officers, it also applies to the trucker patrols (Department of Transportation?).

So, as I commented above, it is important to know the laws of the state. There are no one-size-fits all answers.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

I'm not required to in Kentucky and would not have offered up the information.

That said, each state and situation is different.

 

[Bimus]

They may have ran a check on your plate before ever getting out of there car .
I have noticed game and fish officers will check plates on vehicles parked in camp when no one is there they even knew who belonged to each vehicle .