What Would You Do?
- Thread starter anthony6727
- Start date
I might be paraphrasing here but...
A criminal is threatening my family member with deadly force. and then says "drop your gun"...
My brain will translate his words to something like this:
"Sir, you and your weapon are impeding my attempted rape and murder of your family member, I politely ask that you lower your weapon, or, perhaps give it to me. You could please do so, as soon as you can, I will resume my plans of raping and murdering your family member. Also, should i be taken by whimsy, I will murder you where you stand once your ability to resist has been surrendered."
I will not allow a family member to be taken.
-Of child victims of "stereotypical kidnappings, "40 percent are killed"
-Of abducted children who are ultimately murdered, 74 percent are dead within three hours of the abduction
-In 46 percent of non-family abductions, the child was sexually assaulted
I have told my wife that I would rather risk her life than trust the good intentions of a man holding a gun to her head.
My wife encourages me to practice
(some levity is needed after the sobering numbers)
VR
Matt
A criminal is threatening my family member with deadly force. and then says "drop your gun"...
My brain will translate his words to something like this:
"Sir, you and your weapon are impeding my attempted rape and murder of your family member, I politely ask that you lower your weapon, or, perhaps give it to me. You could please do so, as soon as you can, I will resume my plans of raping and murdering your family member. Also, should i be taken by whimsy, I will murder you where you stand once your ability to resist has been surrendered."
I will not allow a family member to be taken.
-Of child victims of "stereotypical kidnappings, "40 percent are killed"
-Of abducted children who are ultimately murdered, 74 percent are dead within three hours of the abduction
-In 46 percent of non-family abductions, the child was sexually assaulted
I have told my wife that I would rather risk her life than trust the good intentions of a man holding a gun to her head.
My wife encourages me to practice
(some levity is needed after the sobering numbers)VR
Matt
anthony6727
New member
Amen Matt, my thoughts indeed. By the way, since it was brought up before, does anyone have any solid medical information about where the best place is to land that shot to avoid a twitchy trigger finger( if this is possible?) Or is it just luck?
originally posted by Anthony6727:
Brain stem:
The brainstem is roughly behind the tip of the nose if the person is looking directly at you. Adjustments will have to be made for different angles.
That said, nothing is a sure bet.
Fire until the threat stops.
If it doesn't work, keep shooting.
If that doesn't work, just keep fighting.
There is nothing more precious than family.
VR
Matt
Brain stem:
The brainstem is roughly behind the tip of the nose if the person is looking directly at you. Adjustments will have to be made for different angles.
That said, nothing is a sure bet.
Fire until the threat stops.
If it doesn't work, keep shooting.
If that doesn't work, just keep fighting.
There is nothing more precious than family.
VR
Matt
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My gun will never be out of my hands for anyone.
I'd level that rifle at the shoulder the man's head is peaking over and shoot him right in his face.
There is no way I could live with myself if I let that criminal have power over me,my family and my daughter too.
I would hope that whatever power in the universe got me to that room to stop the dirtbag would protect my daughter as I dispatched said dirtbag from ever getting that near my family again.
And,yes,if said dirtbag gave up,I would have to get him on the floor,face down and put the barrel of my rifle at the back of his neck until the police arrived.
I actually practice at the range with the "hostage" target just in case I ever have to take this shot with one of my handguns.
The real question here is what the heck do you expect a guy that has just broke into your house and attacked your daughter to do if you disarm yourself?
Just say,"thanks" and walk out?
It's one of the reasons all of my handguns have a single action mode.
I'd level that rifle at the shoulder the man's head is peaking over and shoot him right in his face.
There is no way I could live with myself if I let that criminal have power over me,my family and my daughter too.
I would hope that whatever power in the universe got me to that room to stop the dirtbag would protect my daughter as I dispatched said dirtbag from ever getting that near my family again.
And,yes,if said dirtbag gave up,I would have to get him on the floor,face down and put the barrel of my rifle at the back of his neck until the police arrived.
I actually practice at the range with the "hostage" target just in case I ever have to take this shot with one of my handguns.
The real question here is what the heck do you expect a guy that has just broke into your house and attacked your daughter to do if you disarm yourself?
Just say,"thanks" and walk out?
It's one of the reasons all of my handguns have a single action mode.
[
I have read the responses and it seemes that no one has planed ahead for this type of action whether at home or on the street.
Not having to worrywith small children any more my wife an I have planed to use a code word if this would ever happen.
Once the code word is spoken she will drop straight down an hope I dont miss.
I would think this could be taught to most children.
]
I have read the responses and it seemes that no one has planed ahead for this type of action whether at home or on the street.
Not having to worrywith small children any more my wife an I have planed to use a code word if this would ever happen.
Once the code word is spoken she will drop straight down an hope I dont miss.
I would think this could be taught to most children.
]
anthony6727
New member
Oden,
Thanks for your reply! I hadn't even thought of using a code word of some sort. It's interesting in that I think that every family usually has a discussion on what to do in the case of a natural disaster ( fire, earthquake, etc), it's logical that any one serious about home defense should have a similar conversation should a potential hostage situation occur.
Thanks for your reply! I hadn't even thought of using a code word of some sort. It's interesting in that I think that every family usually has a discussion on what to do in the case of a natural disaster ( fire, earthquake, etc), it's logical that any one serious about home defense should have a similar conversation should a potential hostage situation occur.
One of the things my wife and I have discussed is exactly this scenario and how to handle it ... with her as the hostage ... we've agreed that if I use her middle name, it's time for her to relax her legs and give me a shot at the bad guy ... just like they say never get in anybody's car, I'd add NEVER surrender your gun ...
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I'd rather shoot at a stationary bad guy with my loved one equally stationary that take a risk of the BG shooting the loved one as soon as they move and/or having to hit a moving bad guy while they struggle with my family member.
If they're standing there, more or less still, and I've been given the drop the gun or else option, I can't foresee anything happening except taking the shot, if it's at all clear to take.
"Code word" options seem to introduce unnecessary variables IMO.
Any planning ahead should be more like "Honey... if this ever happens, slowly, slowly, lean your head out of the way of the bad guys head and HOLD STILL!"
If they're standing there, more or less still, and I've been given the drop the gun or else option, I can't foresee anything happening except taking the shot, if it's at all clear to take.
"Code word" options seem to introduce unnecessary variables IMO.
Any planning ahead should be more like "Honey... if this ever happens, slowly, slowly, lean your head out of the way of the bad guys head and HOLD STILL!"
This is an honest question, and I'm not an EMT or physician, but for a bad guy holding a pistol to a loved-one's head, with a finger on the trigger, are there concerns about (here memory fails) a reflexive response to clutch the hand, perhaps discharging the weapon involuntarily?
My gut is to take the shot - In any event, I am not surrendering my weapon in any such case. This is one of the few hard and fast rules - I will not submit to the mercies of an assassin.
My gut is to take the shot - In any event, I am not surrendering my weapon in any such case. This is one of the few hard and fast rules - I will not submit to the mercies of an assassin.
Regarding reflexive firing on the part of the bad guy, in the cases of hostage shots I've either seen on video or are familiar with--which admittedly are not many--I'm not aware of any such instances. That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but it doesn't seem likely even with handguns (service caliber). All I know is that I'd rather take that risk than let the bad guy have his way with my family and me, completely helpless and at his mercy (or lack thereof).
And as for code words, as others have pointed out it's probably better to have as static a situation as possible when shooting near those you do not wish to kill. The bad guy may pull the trigger if there is a struggle anyway, and he may be too strong to get away from in the first place. There are just way too many variables, and I want at least one good shot if he's too stupid to shoot me instead of pointing his gun at a hostage.
And as for code words, as others have pointed out it's probably better to have as static a situation as possible when shooting near those you do not wish to kill. The bad guy may pull the trigger if there is a struggle anyway, and he may be too strong to get away from in the first place. There are just way too many variables, and I want at least one good shot if he's too stupid to shoot me instead of pointing his gun at a hostage.
micromontenegro
New member
IMHO:
If the BG is remotely knowledgeable about mugging people, your loved one will not be able to get away from his grip. Trying to do so will at best make him move when you least want him to, and at worst, make him fire.
The BG holding a hostage is making time, and trying to make you surrender your gun. He is not interested in killing the hostage right away (he will do that later). So you probably have useful seconds to distract him and so he will hopefully point away for a second, take his finger away from the trigger, or at least relax the trigger finger. That's when you shoot.
Me, I would absolutely go for the eye socket further from the victim: from a frontal position that is the surest way to enter the cranium into the brain, and hopefully at least glance the stem, which usually means instant incapacitation.
Why all this? Because I've seen it work. The shooting which I posted as a video was orchestrated that way by someone in my family who is considered the best LEO in the country: talk to the guy, make his talk, snatch the instant he relaxed his grip in the revolver, a .223 to the right eye. Extremely successful end of story.
If the BG is remotely knowledgeable about mugging people, your loved one will not be able to get away from his grip. Trying to do so will at best make him move when you least want him to, and at worst, make him fire.
The BG holding a hostage is making time, and trying to make you surrender your gun. He is not interested in killing the hostage right away (he will do that later). So you probably have useful seconds to distract him and so he will hopefully point away for a second, take his finger away from the trigger, or at least relax the trigger finger. That's when you shoot.
Me, I would absolutely go for the eye socket further from the victim: from a frontal position that is the surest way to enter the cranium into the brain, and hopefully at least glance the stem, which usually means instant incapacitation.
Why all this? Because I've seen it work. The shooting which I posted as a video was orchestrated that way by someone in my family who is considered the best LEO in the country: talk to the guy, make his talk, snatch the instant he relaxed his grip in the revolver, a .223 to the right eye. Extremely successful end of story.
There's a mighty big difference between a dedicated sniper who has set up to take an intradiction shot in broad daylight, checked his ballistic calculator and windage adjustments, took a crosswind reading, maybe shot a laser for ranging and elevation, and possibly has a spotter... and a home owner/parent in their boxer shorts with an AR and a heart rate of 180bpm at Oh-dark-thirty.
I consider my level of proficiency above average, and I'd be happy to have my eyes adjusted, hands relatively dry, breathing steady, and put two rounds into his head. "Eye socket" is asking too much from a typical human being given the scenerio posed.
Even those with considerable operational experience, as far as I know, are fairly satisfied putting live rounds (as in, not during training) into regions of a soft target about 5" x 3" center of mass, and the "T-Box," a 3-4" triangle connecting the nose and eyes, behind which is the ocular-cranial cavity and sinuses. Point of aim is usually the bridge of the nose.
Let's also not forget the importance of how your rifle is set up. If you have BZO at 300 meters, then POI at 5-15 meters in your house might be anywhere from 2" to 2.5" below POA. That means you must offset hold your sights. Now considering the CQB nature of the engagement, you'd likely use your 0-2 sight (assuming no red dot), which is still typically set up for 200 meters. Practically speaking, your POA may have to be near the top of the forehead in order to put a round into the OC cavity. The shorter your barrel, the greater this effect will be. Unless your kit is already set up for CQB, that's a lot to remember at 4am.
I consider my level of proficiency above average, and I'd be happy to have my eyes adjusted, hands relatively dry, breathing steady, and put two rounds into his head. "Eye socket" is asking too much from a typical human being given the scenerio posed.
Even those with considerable operational experience, as far as I know, are fairly satisfied putting live rounds (as in, not during training) into regions of a soft target about 5" x 3" center of mass, and the "T-Box," a 3-4" triangle connecting the nose and eyes, behind which is the ocular-cranial cavity and sinuses. Point of aim is usually the bridge of the nose.
Let's also not forget the importance of how your rifle is set up. If you have BZO at 300 meters, then POI at 5-15 meters in your house might be anywhere from 2" to 2.5" below POA. That means you must offset hold your sights. Now considering the CQB nature of the engagement, you'd likely use your 0-2 sight (assuming no red dot), which is still typically set up for 200 meters. Practically speaking, your POA may have to be near the top of the forehead in order to put a round into the OC cavity. The shorter your barrel, the greater this effect will be. Unless your kit is already set up for CQB, that's a lot to remember at 4am.
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For the bridge of the nose shot, I aim at the bridge of the nose 
The part that I do diffrent is I aim using the *bottom* of the front sight post. In classes and at the range I have found that this works pretty well from 20ish yards and in.
Your sights may vary. It needs to be checked.
The part that I do diffrent is I aim using the *bottom* of the front sight post. In classes and at the range I have found that this works pretty well from 20ish yards and in.
Your sights may vary. It needs to be checked.
micromontenegro
New member
If I am using a gun for HD, I'll make pretty sure the sights are adjusted for HD ranges.
Hey Oden, my Wife and I have a code word too! I know we were not the first ones to think of it, I just had not heard anyone speak of it until now.
Two things;
First, Get a Dog,problem solved. I prefer Rotty's myself, but our Boxer/Pit puppy ain't gonna let anyone within fifty yards of our house without raising a real stink, no way, no how. Like I said, problem solved.
Number two, The reason you own a gun in the first place is to SHOOT THE SOB.I am suprised that gun owners are even having this discussion. My wife and I have already put this to bed, as it were.
BTW, My long time friend Thom D. was a real SEAL team member, he went through tactical rifle training, and he says what the other poster said. At that distance, from a standing position, shoot at the point of the nose, the only certain "rag doll" effect comes from hitting the "medula ombligata' or the apricot as they call it. According to him shoot just low of "right between the eyes"
And I am sure of my load of Nosler Ballistic Tips and Partitions in my wifes Mini 14, and in my Bushmaster. Of course I do have my pump loaded with 00 ought, just in case.
Anyone who touches one of my family, their WILL be shooting.
JMHO, and YMMV.
Willy
Two things;
First, Get a Dog,problem solved. I prefer Rotty's myself, but our Boxer/Pit puppy ain't gonna let anyone within fifty yards of our house without raising a real stink, no way, no how. Like I said, problem solved.
Number two, The reason you own a gun in the first place is to SHOOT THE SOB.I am suprised that gun owners are even having this discussion. My wife and I have already put this to bed, as it were.
BTW, My long time friend Thom D. was a real SEAL team member, he went through tactical rifle training, and he says what the other poster said. At that distance, from a standing position, shoot at the point of the nose, the only certain "rag doll" effect comes from hitting the "medula ombligata' or the apricot as they call it. According to him shoot just low of "right between the eyes"
And I am sure of my load of Nosler Ballistic Tips and Partitions in my wifes Mini 14, and in my Bushmaster. Of course I do have my pump loaded with 00 ought, just in case.
Anyone who touches one of my family, their WILL be shooting.
JMHO, and YMMV.
Willy
EricReynolds
New member
I'd use some psycholgy with the BG and give him some things to think about. He is one of two kinds of people
1) A burglar, who grabbed my kid when he accidently woke her up. He just wants to get out of my home alive and with his freedom. If he's this guy, he likely wouldn't really hurt ny kid and has no interest in doing so. I tell him there is no way I'm dropping my gun, but if he puts my kid down, keeps his weapon trained on me as I have mine on him, I'll allow him to back out of the house and we all live. If he's a career criminal, he likely has a practical mind and will go for this plan.
2) A pschopath who came into my home with the intent to kill my family a la In Cold Blood. I give him the ame option. Either way, if he kills my kid, I have to imagine thawas going to be inevitable. I explain to the BG if my kid dies, he dies next but I will go medieval and he'll obviously believe me. Even the craziest psycho, might get timid and back down.
This is a good situation where a laser comes in handy. It's intimidating. If he has any thoughts of killing me and my kid if he's quick enogh and I miss him are diminished. In case he's not thinking that, I'll explain it to him that the red dot on your adam's aplle is wear the bullet will go. I'd ask him to imagine what that feels like and promise him it will if he hurts my baby...or he could just walk away. Let that rattle around in his brain and odds are, everything will be ok.
1) A burglar, who grabbed my kid when he accidently woke her up. He just wants to get out of my home alive and with his freedom. If he's this guy, he likely wouldn't really hurt ny kid and has no interest in doing so. I tell him there is no way I'm dropping my gun, but if he puts my kid down, keeps his weapon trained on me as I have mine on him, I'll allow him to back out of the house and we all live. If he's a career criminal, he likely has a practical mind and will go for this plan.
2) A pschopath who came into my home with the intent to kill my family a la In Cold Blood. I give him the ame option. Either way, if he kills my kid, I have to imagine thawas going to be inevitable. I explain to the BG if my kid dies, he dies next but I will go medieval and he'll obviously believe me. Even the craziest psycho, might get timid and back down.
This is a good situation where a laser comes in handy. It's intimidating. If he has any thoughts of killing me and my kid if he's quick enogh and I miss him are diminished. In case he's not thinking that, I'll explain it to him that the red dot on your adam's aplle is wear the bullet will go. I'd ask him to imagine what that feels like and promise him it will if he hurts my baby...or he could just walk away. Let that rattle around in his brain and odds are, everything will be ok.