What to do in THIS HD scenario?

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2 masked men, in my house, carrying guns.

I'm gonna cap the first one with a well aimed shot to the head, and then unload on the other one.
In my house any shot would be under 15', and if I can see well enough to see they have guns, I can make the headshot.

And since they both have guns, by the time someone gets there they will both have guns in their hand, or on the floor nearby. ;)

Then I'm gonna go to court and go after any assets they or their family posess, to ease my mental anguish. Don't think I won't test the legal waters on this one!
 
what'reya gonna do? - deliver a Coup de Grace last shot to the head?
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If he is already armed, he can always commit suicide...maybe with some help.

Does anyone have a problem with shooting them both in the back if the opportunity arose
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I have the same problem with doing this that I do with breathing - none at all. Armed thugs moving around my house, family asleep, someone is going to die, and it will be a cold day in hell before I turn and run and abandon my duties to my family. In this very limited circumstance, F the law, F safety, your family is depending on YOU.
 
Honestly in that scenario, I would try to take cover and not be seen. If at all possible, I wait till they are in another area, and make for the stairs. Wake up the wife, grab the kids as silently as possible, and put them all in the master bedroom, wife with cellphone and pump 12 gauge, lock the door behind me, and take cover near the top of the stairs. First unlucky bastard whos head comes level with the top of those stairs is as dead as I can make him.
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I believe DT has a good handle on things.

However, I would not know whether my family upstairs was still alive.

Given the difficulty in getting upstairs undetected, and that in my state such an invasion would constitute a deadly threat, I might simply seek a location advantage where I could ambush them both from cover and do so.

Remember those four 12 gauges I stashed around the house? Here's the reason.
 
Alternative Ending

In some of the above scenarios, if things go wrong, you could always hit the "reset" button and try again.

Also, how do you all get your adrenaline under such control in a stressful life and death situation. I mean being able to make a controlled head shot and all. Do you pracise Zen Buddahism(sp?)? A flushing rabbit ususally gets me going. I wonder what a jumping intruder would do.
 
XB wrote:

Given the difficulty in getting upstairs undetected, and that in my state such an invasion would constitute a deadly threat, I might simply seek a location advantage where I could ambush them both from cover and do so.
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While taking cover until I could get upstairs, if the opportunity presented itself, I believe I would try to neutralize the threat. However, top priority in my mind is to get up those stairs before they do if at all possible and get the family to secure location, and LEO on the phone. Let 'em rob me blind downstairs, who cares. I got full replacement value insurance. ;)

Now if the worst has happened and BG's got to family first, well, nothing would stop me from taking out the BG's. Even if I had to blow up the entire house to do it. Nothing left to lose at that point....
 
Gunsmoke

When I was a kid, Gunsmoke was my favorite show. Matt Dillon was great, espically when he would shoot the gun out of the BG's hand. Maybe some of you should think of that tactic.
 
However, top priority in my mind is to get up those stairs before they do if at all possible and get the family to secure location, and LEO on the phone. Let 'em rob me blind downstairs, who cares. I got full replacement value insurance.
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Agreed DT. I'm not questioning you, family is top priority. I'm just considering the difficulty of negotiating a bunch of creaky stairs in a quiet house with my back to the BGs. You are no good to the wife and kiddos with your cerebrum splattered on the wall. ;)

If going upstairs must be done before clearing the bottom floor, I think the best way would be to stay on the side of the steps.......less creaking, and slowly back up the stairs. The danger, of course, is falling on your butt and alerting the BGs, or being seen because you are taking to much time. If you run up the stairs, or make any noise at all, you had better be ready to establish a kill zone in the stairway as soon as you get to the top, with your family awake and wondering what daddy is doing. Your back would be to your family, and their noggins in the line of fire. That's why I would consider this a very risky endeavor and would likely elect to check on the family when the threat is eliminated. That does not mean they are not top priority.
 
Don't poop in my Cocoa Puffs.

My perspective is that this is a very bad thing and I'm not impressed by overly optimisitc predictions of success and chest pounding.

I've done a fair amount of FOF, in similar scenarios - one thing I take away is:

1. You can miss at close distances
2. Your shoots can be in nonfatal or disabling places.
3. From lectures (from gun friendly military emergency surgeons) - you cannot count on COM or head shots to disable someone.
4. When the gunfire starts in close range FOF - everyone has a very high probability of getting shot.

In this scenario:

1. You must determine if these are a real threat. There is a real possibility of shooting an innocent. It might be unreasonable given the scenario but it does happen.

2. When you start shooting, you must have the realization that you might miss and/or your shots will not be incapacitating and thus you will take return fire. For all, you know when you shoot the first guy, the second bolts up the stairs.

3. Also, they may shoot you.

4. Legalisms - if you truly saw two armed men in your house, this is a lethal threat by the standard of protecting your family. Deal with the law later. However, know how to respond to the law and have an attorney who knows the issues of self defense.

You'd better think about finishing off the wounded or planting guns. That will be easily detectable and you are sunk. If you said this stuff here just to chestpounding, well goody for you - it's stupid.

5. Tactics:

a. Do nothing but observe - this may lead to action later. The key is movement up the stairs.

b. Try to get up the stairs - that's a good plan if you can pull it off. Do you know that no one is up there already?

c. Challenge in some fashion - yell that you already called the law even if you didn't. Do you have an alarm that you can trigger to make noise. Can you get a good cover position (not just concealment) and challenge them, telling them to get out and you have guns.

Or do the Ninja - sometimes rapid aggression works.

d. Ambush them - as said before that might work but be prepared to follow up in a tactically sound manner. If they are down - the best thing might be to get to your family and hunker down.

There is no set answer but glib, tough answers are baloney. It's a bad situation. In FOF (granted not the real thing but pretty high end excercises), I've killed an entire team, killed two and been killed - shot one as I theoretically died. And I was just shot to pieces - it's an interesting lesson - with sims, paint balls and airsoft - you get interesting bruises, your skin is broken and you hurt - even with protection.

Even high end operators and trainers were sometimes just flat out 'killed'.

So challenge them like a ninja, make that head shot and then plant guns in their hands. Make sure you kill the wounded that are begging you for their life in a manner that forensics will determine was suspect. That's a good plan.

Damn Cocoa Puffs taste funny!
 
Hey that's it law and order first.

Hi Roy,

Funny meeting you here.

Yea that is a good way to go. Then you calmly pick up the phone and call the local police. I just shot the guns out of a couple of guy's hand, can you get over hear real quick. OK cut, print.

I think that would be about as real as a head shot. No head shots.

I just shot to stop them your honor. So I unloaded into them from 10 feet with my birdshot that was still in my loaded gun. It was loaded? Did you have to unlock the trigger housing group lock that the law requires? HMMMM

Tough call.

Harley
 
Dumb Detectives

You must have some dumb detectives in your area. Lets see, plant a gun and that will fool the crime lab. Reading some of these responses makes me feel like I have gone down the rabbit hole. I expect Alice to give a response at any time.

I bet some folks here would make great poster children for the gun control groups.
 
Meyer and Wayne have a good handle on things, as well as others like #8 and like minded answers.

I don't get why I'm being attacked for asking if anyone had a problem shooting these BGs in the back? It was only a question :D

And please don't change the scenario. You don't have a phone, you're not upstairs, and these aren't cops or family members.... etc. This is the scenario presented and you have about 10 seconds to decide the course of action. This is good practice.

My answer is that, in MY state of Colorado, I know the law. The law gives me complete discretion to use lethal force against armed burglars: the state statute is below. I suggest you all learn your state laws.

I think the most effective attack against these attacker is to conceal yourself and take tactical aimed shots, preferably in the back. If you shoot them in the back they won't see exactly where the shot came from and will have to spin around to take aim and shoot. I carry a .40 so my first shot with a double tap is almost guaranteed to take down one of them. Now the odds are still in my favor because I can probably squeeze off at least a couple of mildly accurate shots at BG #2 before he can even react, and probably send 5 shots his way before he can squeeze of a single shot. If any of those shots are lethal, the threat it neutralized.

I think shouting LEO is on the way is a mistake. Now you have two intruders who know your position and will separate and be on the defensive and now you've got a house to clear.

I would worry about the legality later, but I am confident that shooting in the back would be justified in Colorado given these circumstances, based on the law and caselaw. There would be a preliminary hearing to decide if an indictment is even possible and, given the facts and ONLY my side of the story, it's extremely unlikely there would be an indictment. Two armed men, ski masks, burglars or assassins, middle of the night, family upstairs, deadly force warranted and necessary (it doesn't matter if the shot was in the back or face) etc. = no prosecution.



CRS 18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.
(1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
(3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.
(4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.
 
Shoot them in the back?

Just as an aside: IF they are all dressed in black, the lights are out, and all you see is general movement moving towards the stairs...

How can you really tell if someone is moving forward or backward? For that matter, if they are all in black, in a black room, how can you really tell if they are facing you or not?

As far as I am concerned, if I sensed danger to my family, moving towards the stairs, I really don't care if they offer their back to shoot at or their front. Honestly, I would rather shoot them in the back. It would take them that much longer to turn around, gain target, and try to shoot back. I simply would evaluate that as a "tactical advantage".

Bottom line: go ahead and steal the stereo. But if you move towards the stairs, your life is forfiet.

Edited to add: And, quite frankly, If I get dead trying to defend my family, well, I can live with that. There IS that real possibility. I'm not going to sacrifice my family just so I can live a couple of moments longer.
 
I like the tactical advantage of backshots against the BGs in this scenario.

No "anything" is guaranteed to take someone down. Hence there were survivors of FAT MAN and LITTLE BOY!

However, a person would be hard pressed to survive a single hollow point corbon shot to the COM at 10 yards, not to mention a decent chance for a score on the double tap. This will cause massive shock trauma, wound channel(s), and interruption of vital organs. He'll likely go down almost instantly, but surely within a few moments.

Even if he's wearing body armor, it'll still feel like getting hit with a Louisville slugger in the back. It's fair to say that the better armed of the two is going down, probably fatally. Then the threat is with the second BG.

Like I said earlier, a hail of lead his way and there's a good chance for a score against him too with the same results as #1.

There are no guarantees, I'm just giving what I think I would hope to do in this situation and do my best to shoot them and not get shot in the process. I could end up dead, but I'd be taking at least one of them with me!
 
Even if he's wearing body armor, it'll still feel like getting hit with a Louisville slugger in the back. It's fair to say that the better armed of the two is going down, probably fatally
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b-b-b-b-but you said that you could react quickly after being shot while wearing your armor! you said that cops can quickly react and return fire without skipping a beat!

if you want to begin a firefight by shooting someone in the back, go for it. :rolleyes:
 
This is the scenario presented and you have about 10 seconds to decide the course of action.
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I wish my classes sent me such easy questions, it took me one picosecond to figure this one out. Solution? Remove the threat to your family. Yes, as Glenn has been pointing out you may die, but what kind of man would not gladly stare death in the eye to protect those who are his?
 
Spaceman:

What I said in the past was that you will likely survive an otherwise lethal shot stopped by body armor (the context of the conversation was a frontal shot during a robbery for instance), but you'll have deep tissue bruising and possibly broken bones. This would probably feel like getting hit with a bat. In a gun fight, you can probably still function well enough to shoot back. However, I never discussed being shot in the back until this posting.

Your BACK has more organs against the surface, such as spine and kidneys. It would be signifiantly more deadly or damaging even with a vest than a front shot (b/c vitals are protected by ribs). Hence, I would take a back shot in this scenario for tactical reasons.

I also said you can function better than you could IF YOU WERE NOT WEARING THE VEST. Why don't you go back and read my other postings....
 
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