What to do in bad situation?

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I'm sure you will Jim.

I want to say something now before someone says something. When I said that I've seen Soldiers take their first life and not be able to do follow up scans, I meant their first life up close and personal. And typically, they were only "out of it" for about 15-30 seconds. And if you yelled their name at them, they started moving. It's just that initial shock of seeing what you've done that I'm referring too.
 
Let me put it this way...some of you know what I mean about an "overdrive" state, where everything slows way the hell down, sound goes quiet, you tend to do tunnel-vision unless you know enough to deliberately counter that, your emotions go flat...whole spectrum of "special effects".

I've been there eight times now. :) Only one in anything like "combat". The first was at age 12...dodged a natural disaster. The rest were bike-related.

Controlling the post-event shakes has gotten easier. Last couple of times, no real shakes or "crash" afterwards at all. Whatever is going on is some kind of natural drug, way past just "adrenalin" on it's own. The rise/peak/crash cycle is just insanely fast, a much wilder ride than any stimulant I've ever read about. And whatever it is, you can build up a tolerance :D.

I don't have to guess - I *know* that'll happen if I ever have to draw a gun.

And I know that at least in my case, fine motor control won't be affected, based on some of the crazy stuff I've managed on two wheels including very fine adjustments to throttle/front brake/clutch/shifter all at once.

So...yeah, I'm quite sure I can get in over my head. No question. But I'm also throwing BIG energy downrange, high-end 357Mags, with the best set of sights I've ever used on any handgun.

I think I can cope.
 
Adrenaline junkies, in my experience, tend to do much better in these situations. If you can control the "Double AF", adrenaline ass hole factor as we used to call it, then you should do well in just about any situation.

We called it Double AF because of all the "squeezing" that goes on. Eyes go tunnel, lids start to close, mouth gets puckered sucking in air, blood vessels force blood to the center, your ass tightens up, you get the picture.;)
 
Retired15T,

Thanks for sharing your insight. I'm sure you have seen more crap in your lifetime than most of us armchair quarterbacks combined. I was wondering if those people who had their first up close kills froze before their pulled the trigger or after. I'm sure they had good training before they were in that situation.

I believe that I would be able to pull the trigger even though I don't have any prior experience doing so. I'm also sure that I will feel all of the things you mentioned AFTER I have pulled the trigger. In fact, my lack of experience may even give me less hesitation to pull the trigger since I have never witnessed all of the blood and gore nor experienced the after-effects. As for hitting where I am aiming, I am sure the adenaline will affect me, but 6 feet is pretty close. I have been shooting for almost half my life and I added a grip activated laser. I think I should be able to score a center of mass hit.

I am not saying that I would simply drop the bad guy. If you read my previous posts, I am saying that I am not going to defend someone elses property with lethal force. Now if the bad guy says something that makes me believe he is planning on shooting people anyways or of he threatens me or my family, I will have no hesitation before shooting him.

Most likely, I will observe and try to get away from the situation. I will try and get my weapon as discreetly as possible in case things go down hill.
 
Jim March....nice to see that someone can relate to SHTF bike stuff. I'm still here so I guess my reactions have been good so far......
 
I've seen in FOF at close distances:

1. The gun taken away
2. The guy with the gun drawn shot by a guy with a holstered gun
3. The charging, tackle guy get hosed by the gun carrier

There is no guarantee that you will take the gun and your opponent isnt't savy when they are pointing the gun at you.
 
Some of you guys need to click on the links in Glenn's sig and seriously read what he's written. I can tell you from personal experience that there is no way you can know what you will do in a given situation until you are in it. I don't care how many times you've rehearsed it in your mind. Reality is different. The best you can do is train to hone your motor and muscle memory skills to overcome the black that you will be in at the time and hope that you have enough presence of mind to do the right thing. That's why drawing and firing your weapon should always be the last resort.

As Glenn points out in his paper on training, the guys that die first are the hard chargers who believe they can do anything or that the situation won't affect their ability to aim and fire. The reality is, you don't know. If you think you do, you're very likely to become a victim.

Reminds me of the joke about the old bull and the young bull spotting a herd of cows......
 
baldeagl1: right, but...one leeetle problem.

That "overdrive" state is only going to kick in if I think somebody's life is at stake. 7 out of those 8 times it was my butt on the line, once it was somebody else's. What I can do while in that state just cannot be measured via force-on-force.

Again: whatever is going on is "naturally drug induced". It has a rise-peak-crash cycle like any other psychoactive drug.

I used to be into self hypnosis to a moderately advanced degree. I pondered whether or not it was possible to program in a deliberate "overdrive trigger". My conclusion was that it was, but I'd have to be batpoop crazy to try.

In my experience, as best I can tell, it has a rise/peak/crash cycle of roughly 1 second / 30 seconds / 5 minutes. Crack cocaine has a reported "cycle" of about 2 minutes / 15 minutes / hour+, which is about the wildest psychopharmaceutical roller coaster you can strap yourself into.

Whatever is causing "overdrive" makes crack look like the kiddie ride outside a grocery store in comparison.

Once I realized THAT, any inclination to do a manual trigger of that stuff went away. Permanently. Good way to get very dead in an extra-exciting fashion if you don't turn the stuff off fast enough. I know of no way of safely testing it in a dojo or force-on-force.

I do however have a pretty good idea of what it can do, in my personal case.
 
Personally I'm torn between not wanting to not help someone obviously in need, but also needing to watch out for myself. stuff can go sideways in a courtroom really quick.

I'd probably stand by ready to draw if need be and just pray he only wants the money.
 
Personally I'm torn between not wanting to not help someone obviously in need, but also needing to watch out for myself. stuff can go sideways in a courtroom really quick.
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If that was the attitude that the minutemen took, and they only defended their own lives and property, allowing the British to run roughshod over the public, disarming them, hanging them, taking their lands, well, we'd have lost.

The people who went to war in the 18th and 19th century to defend their fellow men were in the worst possible position. Read about bunker hill, Washington's men at valley forge, and so forth. These were men who left their families at home, knowing full well that marauders might burn their houses, kill their women and children, steal their livestock, and went to war under conditions that almost no modern american would tolerate for even a moment without abandoning whatever cause it was.

That wasn't sitting down on the bus or drawing a gun on an armed bandit, that was freezing to death in snow without shelter, dying of gangrenous bullet or bayonet wounds, loss of limbs, and horrendous things that people now can't even comprehend, much less accept as a risk that they must take as a duty to humanity.

One man in Yellowstone dove into a boiling hot spring to rescue a dog, but I'm hearing people here say that they wouldn't take a risk on an injury, criminal charges, lawsuit, death, or psychological pain to save another human's life.

I personally can't understand it at all. Millions of men took far greater risks than this, and did it just out of bravery of spirit and duty.

If my wife is made a widow, I'm sorry, but maybe someone else's wife won't be. She will be left with my insurance, at least, and maybe, the comfort that someone else will be alive, and maybe a dozen others because of my organs.

My mother died blind of neurological disease. Her corneas alone gave sight to two people. It was worth it.
 
What would you do

At our voluntary safe seminar in Rochester, NY area we we told we could use deadly physical force only when we were under the threat of deadly physical force.

We were also told that legally - shooting someone in the back is usually not good thing for the shooter.

When I was in high school I worked at a Burger King. We were told if someone comes and demands the money - give it to them. No need to ask if he wants fries with it simply give him the money.
 
That is why it will always come down to the ones with the best judgement being the ones that are best concealed carry candidates.

I know of a whole lot of people who would bust in on any situation just because they have a gun, and have waited all of their lives to be in a genuine, honest to god gunfight, and be the hero.
 
One man in Yellowstone dove into a boiling hot spring to rescue a dog, but I'm hearing people here say that they wouldn't take a risk on an injury, criminal charges, lawsuit, death, or psychological pain to save another human's life.
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I think you are hearing wrong.
Is the $150 in the register worth killing over? I say "NO." (Even if he is a bad guy.)
Most posters, including myself, have stated they would intervene if they thought some innocent person was going to be hurt.

I don't want to see McDonalds robbed of $150, but I doubt I would kill anyone to prevent it. If the clerk is about to be shot, the calculation changes...as does my willingness to unleash a lot of force.
 
briandg said:
If that was the attitude that the minutemen took, and they only defended their own lives and property, allowing the British to run roughshod over the public, disarming them, hanging them, taking their lands, well, we'd have lost.

The people who went to war in the 18th and 19th century to defend their fellow men were in the worst possible position. Read about bunker hill, Washington's men at valley forge, and so forth. These were men who left their families at home, knowing full well that marauders might burn their houses, kill their women and children, steal their livestock, and went to war under conditions that almost no modern american would tolerate for even a moment without abandoning whatever cause it was.

That wasn't sitting down on the bus or drawing a gun on an armed bandit, that was freezing to death in snow without shelter, dying of gangrenous bullet or bayonet wounds, loss of limbs, and horrendous things that people now can't even comprehend, much less accept as a risk that they must take as a duty to humanity.

One man in Yellowstone dove into a boiling hot spring to rescue a dog, but I'm hearing people here say that they wouldn't take a risk on an injury, criminal charges, lawsuit, death, or psychological pain to save another human's life.

I personally can't understand it at all. Millions of men took far greater risks than this, and did it just out of bravery of spirit and duty.

If my wife is made a widow, I'm sorry, but maybe someone else's wife won't be. She will be left with my insurance, at least, and maybe, the comfort that someone else will be alive, and maybe a dozen others because of my organs.

My mother died blind of neurological disease. Her corneas alone gave sight to two people. It was worth it.
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Are you serious? You are comparing patriotic duty with defending someone elses property that is NOT YOURS TO DEFEND??? Would you like me to call McDonald's and a few other fast food chains to ask what THEY would have armed citizens do? I am almost CERTAIN that they would prefer their customers NOT get involved and start a gun battle in the store. Would you respect their rights to do what they want with their money? If an innocent person were to get shot or killed as a result of your actions, they may even try to prosecute you or hold you liable. I don't believe that any state has any type of Good Samaritan type laws that would protect you if something went wrong (unlike rendering first aid or CPR).

We are concealed weapons holders, not police officers. Despite my detest for scumbags that rob people at gun point, I was not appointed judge, jury, and executuioner. My rights as far as the use of lethal force are pretty clear. In Florida, it states that deadly force can be used to protect myself or another person from death or serious bodily harm or the prevention of a forcible felony such as rape, robbery, burglery, or kidnapping, it also states that carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or "good samaritan".

You may want to risk your life, your money, and your freedom to protect someone elses money. Protecting someone elses life is a more noble cause, but maybe your actions will turn a robbery into a shootout. Maybe other people will get killed as result of your actions. Think before you act!!!
 
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"Your money or your life" is not a new social contract.

If I can drop them without undue risk to bystanders, I will. If they die, it won't be because of "money". They'll die because they posed a criminal risk of murder to everyone around them.

I honestly think I could sleep just fine over that. Hell, I'd be halfway through lunch before the cops finally show up.
 
You may want to risk your life, your money, and your freedom to protect someone elses money. Protecting someone elses life is a more noble cause, but maybe your actions will turn a robbery into a shootout. Maybe other people will get killed as result of your actions. Think before you act!!!
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you've apparently ignored important parts of every post I have made about the subject, and parts of posts made by others.

This isn't about money, this is about a criminal committing a felony, who has stuck a gun into the face of some other person's child, and the obvious threat to that person's life.

In this and many other threads, a constant theme runs, that "I'm not putting my **** in jeopardy because someone else is under that gunsight."

The question in the mind of anyone who has a concealed weapon should not be, "should I intercede to save a life?" If it is presumed that you will shoot to save your own life, but not shoot to save the life of another, that is wrong

If you're carrying a weapon and a deadly force situation comes up, your only thoughts should be about if, when, and how, you should intercede with your own deadly force.

If the robbery goes off smoothly, so be it, nobody was hurt. I don't give half a fart about the money. It is all about the people.
 
QUOTING Mr. Glenn Meyer......"The problem with that predictive analogy is that the McDs robber is going to be a child rapist? Well, lets execute him then after conviction for the robbery?
Or if a kid has childhood conduct disorder, execute him as he may be likely to develop antisocial personality disorder and become a murdering sociopath?"

You stretched for that one. Predictive analogy WOULD lead one to believe that if they did it once they'll do it again and how many innocents will be hurt by them eventually? Me thinks you get the drift....but in case not, how many "uneventful" robberies committed by a perp might occur before someone, an innocent, is maimed or killed eventually? If the perp is taken out, incapacitated or killed, there is a nearly 100% chance that he/she will NEVER harm anyone again. That is the gist of part of what I posted.
In a later post you mentioned dropping the blood lust. With blood lust I WILL defend my family. You'll think I'm a maniac. I will do everything in my power to protect them. I may do some things halfway, like keeping my yard clean and tidy or straightening up the garage, but not when it comes to protecting my wife and girls. Anyone with an ounce of gumption would do the same. An armed perp in my family's immediate area with felonious intentions? I'm not giving them the opportunity to scar my family for life.

stephen426....in an INSTANT the perp turns with his booty, a bag of money which isn't yours to defend, and points his gun at you or a loved one or a complete stranger.....and pulls the trigger. You HAD an good opportunity to dramatically alter the outcome but didn't. If caught, the perp languishes in prison for 20 yrs (if WE'RE lucky) and an innocent victims family weeps. Now what say ye?
 
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This is definitely a tough one. But what defensive situation isn't?

If I were in the shoes of the sheepdog in this situation, I'd drop that wolf in the same second he drew a gun on an innocent teenager behind a register. Sure, I might carry some mental baggage after that.. but it's a hellovalot better than the baggage which I prevented the parents of that teen from carrying.

Me.. I love people. I love people so much that I will spend my life in jail just so another person could LIVE their life. Any thug who respects human life so little that he will pull a gun on a person for money isn't just someone I don't approve of.. they are someone I hate with a passion.

I just ranted hardcore, my apologies.
 
Me.. I love people. I love people so much that I will spend my life in jail just so another person could LIVE their life. Any thug who respects human life so little that he will pull a gun on a person for money isn't just someone I don't approve of.. they are someone I hate with a passion.
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Thanks, you summed up my thoughts pretty well. A thug is someone to stop. Period. whoever you are, if you have the opportunity, can do it safely, all that other bs....

The reason you stop him has nothing to do with the purse he is stealing or $50 from a stop and rob. small property crime means nothing.

You are keeping him from shooting the neighbor's son. You are stopping him from raping his daughter. Abducting his grandchild, knifing or beating his mother or grandmother, or even your own grandmother as she walks away from the pharmacy with two months worth of oxycontin. When people are in danger, everything that makes people great and noble requires at least an effort to stop it.

Sometimes it is shooting the guy and taking his gun.

The rest of the time it is turning in the worthless little punk down that happens to be your nephew, sitting on the jury instead of making an excuse, picking up "bargains" that fell off of the truck, or even giving your kid the case of beer for the graduation party.

This is all the boy scout good citizenship that I learned when I was 5, and it still rings true, because it's pretty obvious that abandoning it has not done us a whole lot of good.

And BTW, in case anyone wonders, I don't love people, I hate them all. The chances are that whomever i might someday die defending would turn out to be some hellbound moron that I wouldn't let in my house. Should that stop me? NO. A cop wouldn't do it, because he has made the decision to defend the public, and excluding losers who don't deserve it isn't the right thing to do.
 
Not going anywhere and I fear folks are posting opinions that might get them into legal difficulties if they were in an ambiguous situation.

So, closed.
 
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