What to do in bad situation?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm not going to sit and nitpick about the scenario. I'm going to follow the action, think very hard about it, and when all of the conditions are met, I'm going to kill him.

I owe my fellow humans my protection if possible. I hope that someone will stand up for me if my pimple faced kid is the one in danger.

Several years ago, I found myself in a parking lot, between someone who did his best to make me believe he was a banger, and a van from a church that was full of teenagers that he was shouting at.

If that banger had pulled the gun that he was pretending he had, I would have killed him.

You either stand up for your neighbor's children, or you aren't worth the air that you breath.

The ten commandments said it all: do unto (for) others as you would have them do for you.

That is one of the reasons I'm rather loathe to see concealed carry permits on an a shall give basis, I'm not sure I like the idea that any idiot who applies has the power to absolutely screw up a situation and get people killed, but how else are you going to arm citizens to stop and prevent crime?
 
We are starting down the 'kill 'em trail' that leads to a closure.

Recall that the use of the lethal weapon is to stop the BG. Whether they die may be a consequence but not the primary goal.

There is no guarantee that you will kill someone. Nor is there any guarantee that you can disarm any person on the planet.

Pray continue but don't chest pound folks. If you want to act with lethal force, cut out the blood lust.

Thanks

GEM
 
1. If I fire, I have killed a human (bad deal). I must then live with the fact that he probably would have run off with $150 and everybody still alive.
2. If I don't fire and he kills the kid...(bad deal), #1 doesn't look so bad anymore.
3. If I don't have a weapon (bad deal) I don't worry about #1 or #2. But...he might kill the kid and several more including me..
Click to expand...

You talk as though you'd just be an innocent bystander deciding whether to get involved in someone else's problem. It's real easy to see you at least robbed, or even shot and eliminated as a witness. Or shot for no reason at all. At 6 ft. away, YOU ARE INVOLVED! I think you might proceed, however you decide, as though your own life was in danger.

Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:
 
Last edited:
As mentioned, the situation will dictate my action(s) or, a lack thereof. I'm one of those guys who believes that you should help your fellow man any time you can. The Lord demands that we good guys protect each other from the bad guys.

CLIFF'S NOTES:

Calm myself down. Observe, think, react if needed. In most of these types of robberies, the BG just wants the money and he will leave and it would be foolish of me to bring my weapon into play. If he shoots the clerk, it sucks to be working for Mickie D's that day, but then the BG goes down from my weapon's discharge. I would not get involved unless the BG had already shown a propensity for actual violence and not just threatening violence. Yeah, the clerk is shot, but now the situation is much more controllable.


Long, rambling thoughts on "What If?"

Assuming the area is completely clear for the shot, assuming the BG is going to die instantly without firing his weapon in a nerve jerk reaction to being shot, I'd shoot him.

In reality, we don't know if the BG will pull the trigger or not when shot. So I would begin by getting my firearm ready, but not in the open yet. Then, easing myself back a bit to get out of his peripheral vision, but keeping the path of the shot clear of Mr. Pimples in case I miss or it's a through and through. T&T shots can and do happen even when shooting a BG in the head. I would then bring my weapon up. The clerk, Mr. Pimples, is going to look my way....he won't be able to help it as he sees me raising my weapon. I would then announce in a normal tone of voice for him to drop his weapon and get his hands where I can see them. This is going to make the BG think a cop, or at least an armed person, is off to his side:

He may comply immediately, situation over.

He may shoot the clerk and then I shoot him. Situation over and legally, you will probably be alright. At least in my State you would be. I doubt you would be in Liberal States. Situation over.

The BG probably will not shoot the clerk, but start turning towards me. I then do body-body-head. If his weapon drops as I'm firing, I will try to avoid the head shot. Situation over.

If the BG has a buddy in the place, you will have a more severe situation on your hands. If the BG allows me too, I'd be using my peripheral vision with small head movements to attempt to see the second guy. If a shot is fired at me, hopefully I will then shoot BG #1 before I die. This will, in turn, likely cause the second guy to un-ass the place since he has just killed someone. Situation sucks, but it's over. But if the second guy continues the robbery, then he will be flush with adrenaline and likely make mistakes. He will probably put a few more rounds into my stubborn head.

In any situation where the BG doesn't have a buddy in the place with him, if it turns out I've disarmed him, shot him or he has given up, I will immediately begin scanning the doors for the *possible* get-a-way driver. If a get-a-way driver comes in, the first BG gets a round to the biscuit and I would then engage the secondary target. Most likely though, the driver is going to haul booty out of there to save his own hide.

I could keep on going, fleshing this out in another hundred different scenarios and still, someone else would be able to add another "What-If" to it and/or poke holes in what I've said.

Unpredictable is a word specifically crafted by humans for just such a conversation. ;)

However, I've been there, done that while I was in the Army. The situation allowed for me to still be here typing and the other guy isn't. It sucks too. There's just nothing in this world that will haunt your dreams more so than taking a life.

No matter if you're regarded as a hero, publicly adored, given medals, keys to the city, women falling all over you, your actions will haunt you for the rest of your life. Especially if it wasn't a clean kill that requires follow up rounds. :(
 
Good point. I should not use those exact words, and I know better than to use those words.

what I meant to say, was that I am going to do whatever i deem necessary to prevent injury, or further injury, and the only things I know of to stop a man with a gun from shooting another are generally very lethal. Lacking a taser, I am goint to without exception or question use the most extreme method that is available to me, to completely, totally, immediately, remove the threat that the guy poses.

sometimes, it will be simple enough to wait unti an opportunity to get him at gunpoint, disarmed, and on the floor. If he cocks his weapon or escalates in any manner that provokes me to attack, it goes back to what my old boss used to say to me when I made a mistake:

"Boy, I hope you gave your heart to god, because your *** is mine."

I am then just going to hope, and pray, that the uncontrolled chaos that defines not only gunfights, but life in general, doesn't throw anything at me that I'm unable to handle.

It's basically that simple. You observe, you decide whether to act, then when to act, and then, you do whatever it takes to stop the attacker. If it can be done peaceably, cool. Words are environmentally friendly, as long as it isn' trap. Bullets aren't so freindly to the environment. They're just as bad as second hand smoke!
 
6 ft away , maybe grab adam's apple ( rip & tear ) with one hand while grabbing his gun arm with the other hand ( to point it upwards , a safe direction ? ). Than i get to take his gun home for me to keep.

Maybe ?
 
Last edited:
Ummm...look, by far the best shot in this circumstances is back of the head, behind the ear, low in the skull. With anything from a .380 on up, that's not just instantly fatal, it destroys the entire motor control system. Even more than a "high area" headshot, it's a "drop and not even quiver" shot. "Lights out".

Sorry, but that is just plain fact. If you know what you're doing and you're in this situation, you're going to kill the guy if you take that shot.

There's no use sugar-coating it.
 
Hard advice, but do nothing. Yes, the odds are that he will take the money and run. If he does, do nothing except be ready to give police a good ID, including a license number if you can get it.

IF he fires at the clerk or anyone else, then you can return fire as you can make the reasonable assumption that you are in mortal danger. Whether you can fire if he is fleeing after having killed or wounded someone is trickier but most states will allow it.

The worst case condition is that YOU open fire, miss the BG and kill the clerk yourself. Then you not only go to jail (and you will) and become liable for civil litigation, but you will always have the death of an innocent person on your conscience.

Some of the posters remind me of the silly "why don't cops shoot the hangnail off the bad guy's trigger finger" suggestions. I am no novice on guns, and was an LEO for a fair number of years. I never killed anyone and hope I never have to. But I am not about to bet the life of an innocent person on hitting a half-dollar size spot on a bad guy's head at a distance of even ten feet with a handgun.

Jim
 
Realistically, I would likely be facing situation 3 (no gun).
Demeanor is a big thing for me. If I think he is about to/has started shooting or otherwise hurt people, I go for the base of the skull with a strike, then graple/strike as best I can while trying to keep the muzzle away from me. (Assuming I don't hesistate too long)

If he strikes me as "threaten, grab, and run," I find the least visible spot behind the most solid object I can. (Also works for "Oops, I hesitated, and don't have a clear opportunity for a strike.")
 
Gambling that the bad guy will do no harm is a mistake.
Playing the odds with an armed bad guy is playing Russian roulette.

If you're afraid that you will not be able to shoot without hitting innocent people then more training is needed to raise your confidence and skill level.

Larry
 
if you leave him be, you gamble with the chance of him shooting the employee. its a win lose situation. i mean, this probably isn't his firs robbery and i doubt he robbing mcdonalds to feed his wife and 12 kids. you kill him, and there's one less dirt bag in the world and you may have saved the life on an innocent: win. you don't and who's to say that he doesn't turn the gun on you after the employee?: lose. play it safe, shoot the guy. there's plenty of less lethal options as well.

i'm no psychologist or cop but statistically how many armed robbers have the intent to kill? just wondering if anyone knows
 
If you can't hit a target the size of a softball at 6ft out, time to hang up your hardware.

Now granted, the question is "can you do it under stress?" I think I can. I've been in enough hairy messes (mostly on two wheels) to think I can keep it together long enough to get a shot off.

Most fast food places are single storey, unless we're talking about the deep inner city. If it's a single floor, crouching can send the round flying above bystanders on the other side of the target.

Do a 360 threatscan the moment you know the target is down. Goblins run in packs.
 
FOG = fat old guy. Got the term from a complaint to Mr. Hansen about some articles in SWAT. The poster wanted more high speed low drag guys in the mag, thought there were too many fat old guys. It's a common body type at matches and civilian classes. Like me. :D

BTW, grabbing the gun and waving it in the air is a way to see it go off and you can lose control. You don't really want to go H2H unless you are superbly trained. Even then it's a risk. Look at the cops shot with their own weapons.

It's all differential risk outcomes.

Oh, sports fans - we've forgotten the ever popular secret backup guy. Think about that. Commonly used in FOF training and in the real world.

When you are H2H or engaging one, the other shoots you.
 
All of you owe it to yourselves to test out the "armed perp" scenario.
12 feet away is awfully close and 6 feet away is too close for any handgun to be fired by a anyone thinking they have the time to fire.

A handgun within or at 6 feet from the one who has decided to move to take the gun or tackle has the clear advantage.

Try it out. Give a dummy gun to someone and have him or her wield it at you pointed at you etc. If you decide to take that gun or take out that person with your body you will succeed way before the gun is fired.
 
6 feet away? Are you in his peripheral view? Is there another perp, possibly blocking the door? What is the perp saying to the cashier? Is he demanding money or is he shouting he's going to end his life? Are the employees behind the counter in your line of sight if you decide to draw and aim your firearm? Are they ducking and running or crawled in a corner?

There are so many other questions that I honestly don't see where ANYONE can give a definitive answer. If the perp is demanding money at the moment and giving the employee the chance to comply, then my answer to your question is NO, I would NOT shoot. In my opinion, shooting someone that's looking to rob some cash from a public establishment and isn't providing direct, immediate threat to my life or to my loved ones isn't in the cards.
 
If you go with a body shot I think I read the incapacitation time with a 357 magnum is something like 3.5 seconds- plenty of time to do a lot of harm, so it is either a head shot or nothing. It really is a judgment call, normally, let the guy have the money and do nothing- probably the best bet BUT if he looks really crazy- like he might just shoot up the place- then maybe go for it. Of course a lot also depends on how good you are in shooting under such situations- such as if you have been in military combat, etc.
 
I'm NOT trying to argue with anyone or insult people in the least. I just want to point something out.

Unless you've shot someone in the head, make zero assumptions about how that shot will turn out. When folks say, "If you can't hit a certain area from 6', then hang up your hardware" IMHO, have never had to shoot someone in an intense situation.

Everyone likes to think, especially men, that they will perform under pressure and be the hero of the day. WIN!

In all reality, you are very unlikely to hit where you aim, even from six feet, simply due to the amount of adrenaline that will be flowing through your body.

I spent just shy of a decade in 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. We were Aviators, not door kickers. However, during certain training scenarios, we were trained in CQB with our hands, with knives and with handguns/sub machine guns, as well as all manner of rifles, mostly in an urban environment. Quite often, this was internal training but during training missions, we trained with our various customers. Some of us also took great pains to ensure we had personal friendships in place that allowed us to further our training on our own time with SF, SEALS, Force Recon and the like. Also, on almost every training mission we did with these various organizations, there were plenty of opportunities for us to increase our personal knowledge of various weapons and how to employ them. I was an adrenaline junky too. Fast roping and rappelling out of Blackhawks, check. Recreational parachuting, check. Fast motorcycles and cars, rock climbing, bungee jumping, bar brawls, knife fights in South America and many other adrenaline slathering activities and events? Check.

Even after all that training/experience, and having been in a position to kill bad guys in the past, when an event occurred that required me to draw my M9 for a very close shot, under 10 feet, I still almost bungled it. It's a lot different when firing from a moving platform like a helicopter killing people than it is to kill right in front of you. Muscle memory? I had it in spades. Accuracy? I was noted as one of the best shots in my Brigade and was often tasked with conducting firearms training for fellow Soldiers. But when you make your first, up close shot at a BG, there's a BUNCH of physiological things that happen in a person from sweating adrenaline to mental mind humping. It will affect every individual differently. So forgive me when I say this. If you think you'll take that shot and it will be a clean ending to the situation, you ARE making too many assumptions.

Why do I say this? Because handgun training is a perishable skill. Because unless you've actually shot someone, you never know what you'll do. Most people who honestly think they will shoot probably WILL. But let me tell you something. Be ready to shoot again and be ready to feel the impact on you as a human being. The good thing about being at war, my victim's family wasn't on the local news talking about how he was trying to get his life straightened out, how he was a father of these two kids you see and so on.

I agree with you. A bad guy is a bad guy no matter what. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in McDonald's holding the place up. Great. But killing your fellow human being will have an affect on you. To think otherwise is foolish. If you've been in the military, LEO or a health professional who is used to dealing with what's left of a head when shot, that impact may be minimal. But even in the military, seeing the situation myself where a person made a kill for the first time, the large majority of those people we NOT capable of then scanning their surroundings for any follow on targets. When a headshot is made right there in front of you, the amount of blood that comes with it is, quite literally, most of it. The brain is trashed and the BG is down, but that BG then goes on to bleed out what looks like every last drop of blood as the heart continues to pump simply from left over electrical impulses.

And having just seen a head come apart on you, a real, just recently breathing, talking and moving human head, and then all the blood that comes with it, is a vicious, shocking assault on the senses.

I don't know. Some folks in this thread make it sound like it would be so easy a thing to do. So easy to hit right behind the ear or the base of the skull. DO NOT make that assumption or "train" your mind into thinking that will be the case. Otherwise, when you're presented with a situation where you may be able to save a situation by taking out the bad guy, if you don't have a behind the ear shot or a base of the skull shot, you may just freeze up not knowing what to do. And bad guys tend to get pretty aggressive when they see someone standing there pointing a gun at them who hasn't fired yet.

Hopefully, some of you will know what I mean. I don't feel like I've explained myself very well. Probably from a lack of sleep.
 
I'm 44. I haven't owned a car in over 20 years. I've got a lot of time in on high-performance motorcycles. That's a lot of years of controlling adrenaline dumps. I think I can cope. I could be wrong, mind you...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top