what should my draw speed be?

Slow is smooth & smooth is fast. That means practice doing the draw correctly at whatever speed is comfortable to do it smoothly. The more your practice the faster you will get.

For 1st shot on target at close-quarters distance I would say two seconds is very respectable.

Here is an article by Massad Ayoob on this topic:

One of the most common questions we get is, "How fast should I be able to draw and fire my concealed carry handgun?" The answer usually has to be, "It depends."

The most common rule of thumb is starting with hands clear of a gun carried in an open-top, exposed bolster, you want to be able to draw and get two hits on a seven-yard target in 1.5 seconds. It's a standard part of the graduation exercise at Jeff Cooper's famed Gunsite, and widely used now in police training. Chuck Taylor gets his most committed students to draw and perform a two-shot speed rock in a second flat at arm's length targets, which is a part of his challenging Master course.

That's all a bit optimistic for concealed carry unless you have a particularly efficient technique for clearing the garment, and lots of practice. I recently had occasion to be reminded of this at one of the excellent monthly IDPA matches sponsored by the Gateway Rifle & Pistol Club in Jacksonville, Florida. One stage opened with the shooter standing with the target at arm's length. The free hand was behind his back (to keep it out of the line of fire) and the gun hand at the side. At the beep, the stage began with the shooter drawing the concealed handgun and shooting the target one-handed from a close retention position.

Terrible Twos

As each of the 10 shooters on my relay completed the stage, I asked the range officer to review the electronic timer and check the time for the first shot. It turned out that not one of us had gotten under a second. The day before, while teaching a close quarters battle class, I had gotten the students well under a second for draw to the shot from an open holster and demonstrated same in around three-quarters of a second, but had also taught them that a concealing garment would add a good half second. This was proven here. Average time ran 2.12 seconds.

My time was nearly a quarter-second over the one-second mark. Times ranged from 1.23 to 3.33 seconds. The latter was posted by a fellow who carried his Beretta 92 on safe, but habitually used his free hand to flip the lever. It took him considerable fumbling to get the safety off. No one had taught him the proper technique. Another fellow got 1.37, but he was shooting from low ready, for fun not score, because he didn't have a holster for his new Walther P99. He should have been faster, but he seemed to hesitate. With those two times factored out, the average was still 2.06 seconds.

Some of the others hesitated an instant to fire after they drew as well. This has been observed before with point shooting. There is something in the subconscious of the moral man or woman that makes them hesitate before unleashing a bullet when their eye can't actually see where the gun is pointed.

Other Lessons

Two guns jammed: a Glock and a Beretta, two of the most reliable auto pistols made. Both choked for the same reason. Firing with the elbow touching the body, the forearm is driven back by recoil. This is irrelevant with revolvers, but any auto pistol needs a firm abutment of a flame for the slide to work against. With the unlocked forearm, like the unlocked wrist, the frame moves with the slide in recoil and dissipates the slide's momentum, causing a stoppage. When shooting like this, lock the forearm to keep your auto functioning.

This close, pasters get blown from the target by muzzle blast, and soon, the center zone of the target will blow out "along the dotted line." Do what we finally did and just cut the center out and shoot through it. Jeff Cooper's old Mik-A-Lik target was designed that way in 3-D.

No matter how good you are, the covering garment severely complicates the draw. Those with open front vests or shirts were faster than those who had to get their guns out from tinder pullover garments. For a couple of years I had the honor of being match director for the IDPA Mid-Winter National Championships hosted at Smith & Wesson Academy. One year there was a stage very much like this. The match drew some 140 shooters, including some of the best in the world. Only one beat one second for the first shot from concealment. The time was .98 of one second, and the shooter was World IPSC Champion Todd Jarrett, with his ParaOrdnance LDA 9mm drawn from an open-top hip holster tinder a concealment vest.

Rob Leatham was at that match. His first shot took over a second. Rob has been known to draw a race gun from an unconcealed Safariland speed holster and make his first hit at .60 of one second, or less on demand. Such is the "speed tax" imposed by the concealing garment and the real-world holster.

Bottom line: be realistic. Don't expect a sub-one second draw from concealment starting with the hands clear of the body, and arrange your tactical plans accordingly. Put in lots of practice in getting the cloth out of the way of the steel. Do lots of dry gun practice before you do it with live amino. And always remember the dictum of another world champion, Ray Chapman: smoothness is five-sixths of speed.
 
I read over again what Elmer Keith wrote about combat fast draw back in the late 50s and I'm not so sure now I'm qualified to even think of the subject.

He did have lots to say on the subject and pretty much dismissed the 1911 as out of the running because you had to carry it chamber empty for the sake of safety. But that was also the period of quick draw as a popular sport (which is where Jeff Cooper came in) and it was the thing to talk about at the time, mostly in the context of single actions. He did point out the dangers involved with the fast draw tricks with single actions if you were actually using live ammunition. However, all his comments involved actually hitting the target. No mention of mechanical safeties but mostly he spoke only of double action revolvers, admitting also that a fast draw was possible with double action autos, which were already around by then.

His idea of the perfect combat handgun, you probably know, was a Model 29 with a 4-inch barrel for concealed carry. If you had small, weak hands (like me, I suppose), he recommended the Model 19. My personal favorite happens to be a Model 13.

The troubling part of what he had to say was that he considered combat fast draw to be basically a very advanced skill with a handgun. In this tread it seems to be thought of as more of a basic skill and that is a huge difference in viewpoints. He thought you ought to be a high-scoring target shooter and even able to score regular hits with a handgun at a target 300-yards away, something I would now have trouble doing with any of my rifles.

I have no idea what Jeff Cooper though of all this but was Keith being exceptionally conservative or demanding on this topic or have times changed that much?
 
Yes my coworkers fired at movement. Exactly what I and a few others believe the bad guy holding a gun on you will do.
 
Threegun,

I won't argue your point that it is unlikely you'll need the quick draw in a confrontation. But here is what I am saying: better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Look at it as plan B when plan A has failed. Somewhere in the past, in a gunfight, some good guy needed to be quick from the holster. But he wasn't so he's dead. I don't think you neglect other skills simply to hone your quick draw but you shouldn't dismiss it. Even if you are beaten and take the first round doesn't mean you are dead (ever heard of Lance Thomas-shot in the neck by a robber as he drew gun from under counter then fired, killing bad guy). Beating the second round maybe what keeps you alive. Think of the frog with his hand's around the pelican's neck as the bird tries to eat him).

I've heard it said that gunfights are won in tenths of seconds. I'll defer to one of the greatest lawmen and gunfighters of the 20th century, Delf "Jelly" Bryce. Bryce thought the draw stroke was so important that he practiced it religiously being able to come from a concealment holster and hit his target in about 1/4 second. In one of his most famous incidents, a hotel door opened up with a bad guy lying on the bed, pistol trained at the door. Delf drew on him and put five of six in him. The bad guy never got a shot off. Just food for thought. I appreciate the debate.
 
I definitely agree on the better to have and not need. Yes high speed is great as long as it is combined with situational awareness, appropriate tactics to suit the situation, the ability to place rounds on target, and a smooth consistent presentation. Speed of draw for me is last on this list.

I'm not dismissing speed of draw just figuring its importance in the overall scheme. Many more folks lie dead because they had poor awareness than those who were to slow IMO.

Most of the confrontations I know of poor awareness allowed the bad guy/s to get the drop. I hear them every week as an FFL dealer while folks purchase weapons to be ready for the next time. Every time I ask how a gun would have helped them if things went down exactly the same. Most answer you are right it wouldn't have.
 
An article published in the November 2000 issue of Police Marksman, described the study I mentioned by the Force Science Institute at the Minnesota State University, Mankato. The director, Bill Lewinsky, revealed that the time required to perform certain motions is much faster than previously realized.

Executive Summary:

0.25 seconds: Average Response time to an audible "shoot" signal

0.53 seconds: Average Time for suspect to turn 90°, fire

0.23 seconds: Time Required to draw from waistband carry


How fast can you shoot?
First, let's quantify how fast we can shoot. In this test, the gun is drawn and on target. The shooter has his finger on the trigger and psychologically ready to fire. On average, our shooter is able to "react" to a shot timer and pull the trigger of his weapon in about ¼ second. This is very important since it quantifies the time required to recognize some stimuli (an audible shot timer), process the information in the brain, squeeze the trigger and complete the shot. While a quarter of a second (0.25 seconds) does not seem like a lot of time, we'll show you why it's not as brief as you might think.

Background Info
Some of the following information came from a study regarding subjects of police shootings who were "shot in the back". Lewinsky's team decided to see how fast a person could turn, fire and continue their turn to run away. The following information is, well, enlightening to say the least.

How fast can your suspect move?
In one study Dr. Lewinski positioned subjects facing at a 90° angle to a camera, with a weapon in their strong hand, positioned down by their thigh. They were told to do the 90° turn and during this turn to actually point the gun at the camera and pull the trigger. In a previous study, the average time for a subject to turn 90 degrees was 32/100ths of a second with the fastest being 18/100ths of a second.

Each person used as a subject had his own unique way of doing the general movement. Some subjects raised the gun towards the camera pulled the trigger and then turned; others drop their body then started to turn and raise the weapon all in a single motion. Others started to turn first and then raised the weapon. Some subjects turned by almost spinning in place & then running away. Others ran and turned and took more than 10 yards to reach the shoulder "square back" position. The average time for this motion was 90/100ths of a second and the fastest was 50/100ths of a second. The average time from the start of the motion, through discharge of the gun to the muzzle drop off was 53/100ths of a second. Average time from "muzzle drop off" to the square back position was 37/100ths of a second.

Keep in mind, these are the times for the completed action of raising a held weapon, firing and turning to flee, up to the point where the shoulders were "square" to the camera. Thus, in 0.53 seconds your suspect could turn and shoot you. In 9/10ths of a second he can turn, shoot, turn again to be fleeing the scene.

Drawing from the wasitband
In another motion/time study subjects were requested to place the weapon in their waistband and then, on their own initiative, pull & fire in a very "combat tuck" maneuver. This is a definite skill maneuver and would get faster with practice, but the subjects were not allowed to practice. The average time from start of the motion to weapon discharge was 23/100ths of a section (0.23). The fastest time was 09/100ths of a second! This means that if the subject has a gun in his waistband, the subject can draw and fire his weapon faster - up to three times faster - than the average person would be able to pull the trigger if he were already set to react to this movement.

As mentioned above, with a drawn gun already on target and in response to a shot timer, the average response time is 0.25 seconds to fire. But the paragraph above shows that the average time to pull and fire a gun from concealment was a mere 0.23 seconds. The fastest time was .09 seconds!

Commentary
Lewinski uses high speed film to record and time the motions. The interval between each frame is known and careful measurements are made for accuracy.

The average time for reaction to visual stimuli (with no choices) is between 0.18–0.20 seconds. In the case of auditory stimuli it is shorter 0.14-0.16 seconds. When decisions are required the time required to make an appropriate response to a visual stimulus increases with age from about .37, for 20–30 year olds, to about .44 for 60–70 year olds.¹

So... for a response to a visual cue to shoot, add another .04 seconds to our .25 second reaction time recorded with an audible start tone, or 0.29 seconds to react.

But if there are decisions to be made or other choices, the reaction times get even longer, based on how complex the situation is.

In a high-stress situation such as this, our brains will be primarily focused on processing visual input. Vision takes a huge amount of the brain's resources to process what it sees. In other tests, Lewinski finds when both audible and visual inputs need to be processed the brain focuses on one type of stimuli at the expense of the other. That is, if in the middle of this situation you hear your baby crying or an unusual noise, your brain will not process all the visual signals it sees. Likewise, if you're focused on the visual situation, your brain may not process the sound of an approaching siren or even a loud horn.


So... yes, you can outshoot a drawn gun, but only if you're really really good. It all comes down to whether you want to bet your life that you're about .09 seconds faster than someone else.


[1] Science and Technology in Action
 
Bill, In the past my draw speeds were well under 1/2 second. To fast for us calculate (because of reaction time of the stop watch holder) with our primitive equipment. I couldn't beat coworkers waiting for my movement to fire.

When we faced each other guns in holster....the guy who drew first got his shot off first.
 
Threegun,

You might be fast, but when we're talking about drawing against a gun already pointed at you, do you really want to bet your life that your speed is faster than his reaction time?

My answer: Not unless I'm forced to do so.

Any number of factors could reduce draw speed. The type of concealment garment; a gusty wind blowing the cover hard against the gun; being illuminated but he's in shadows or darkness; finding yourself in physically tight quarters, say like that little alcove into restrooms; being positionally disadvantaged, such as on the stairs below his landing and many others.
 
This continues to be an interesting thread and there are one or two related threads going on at the moment that are also good. But perhaps we should remind ourselves of some basic points--and the hard things about them.

First, the gun will have to be drawn sooner or later. It does no good in the holster unused. That, of course, is what the whole thread is about.

You have to score a hit or hits. If you don't, everything else falls apart. So really one has to practice a draw and shooting a target. But it isn't easy to find a place where you can actually practice that.

It seems logical to practice a lot before starting to use live ammo. You have to figure out how to get a smooth draw without snagging your covering garment (here we are assuming concealed carry) or grabbing your shirttail along with your pistol. That part's hard if you really have a well concealed handgun. I suppose that's where the practice comes in the most.

I tried a few experiments myself last night (my homework) and found that for some reason, one gun was much, much easier to get off a snap (this was with an empty gun in my basement) than with the other. It isn't at all obvious to me even though both have the same action type (DA/SA auto) and have virtually the same grip shape. One has a much thicker slide, which resulted in more drag on the draw but the difficulty was in getting a good or proper grip initially, not in actually "pulling" the gun. It might have been a case of the two guns actually being at a different enough angle. This is probably a good example of why a coach (a trainer, in other words) could be of some assistance, something I've not actually admitted before.

I also tried the same drill with another two guns. One, a K-frame revolver, was hopeless. I just couldn't get a good grip. The other, a single action automatic, cocked and locked, was no more difficult to get out front than the other two autos but the cocked and locked part proved to be something I was frankly unaccustomed to using. So I guess I have to come down on the side that says use the same gun all the time, only that's a little too confining.

There was no problem switching between a DA revolver and DA autos (and the DA/SA transistion is no problem for me either). That is, as far as the trigger goes. I wouldn't go so far as to say that a Glock would be either especially easy to use or especially tricky to use in this situation (a draw and fire) because it is a half-way arrangement. For me, the ultimate would be a double-action only automatic. Either .45 or 9mm pleases me.

I did have a Browning BDM for a while that gave a large magazine capacity, any kind of trigger arrangement you cared for, including DAO, and it was the flattest thing I've ever had outside of a .380 Colt. But it was big and not so light and now it's history.

There are other issues that are being covered in other threads but the main problem I thought in a good (not necessarily fast) draw was getting a good grip on the gun. That's just too easy to dismiss, too. After that comes the little problem of achieving a hit on the target.
 
I am no pistolero but I shoot and hit better when I am not trying to go warp speed and move too.I think its the HITS that count.Drawing concealed from different clothes is the real fly in the ointment and the royal pain in the process.

If you are smooth and deliberate and practice getting a proper grip on the gun to transition to front sight when drawing concealed under many different types of clothes----that would seem to benefit you better than practicing your speed rock from a OWB open holster.

Drawing is only part of the issue. If you are faster than the other fella but he is far more accurate and grimly determined to punch you Center mass and then head shoot you--you have a real problem.Yes,you may peripherally shoot him but he will kill you dead.

Kinda like the old gunfighters in the Old West.When they drew down it was deliberate and very focused!! God forbid,but if we ever have to draw we need that kind of focus.
 
Your draw speed should be about two minutes faster than the other guy.

That gives you a minute for the 'dead man's five seconds' to take effect, 'cause often it is more like 30 seconds and the minute gives you some cushion.

You also get another 30 seconds to get behind something big and heavy, and scan/reload...plus 15 seconds to examine yourself for new holes, cuss, shake your head, and decide if you want to puke or pee your pants. Careful administration of that time will also accommodate a quick prayer of thanks, if you're so inclined.

Last 15 seconds should be used to ensure that you are in a secure location and call 911.
 
Bill,

You might be fast, but when we're talking about drawing against a gun already pointed at you, do you really want to bet your life that your speed is faster than his reaction time?
Click to expand...

I was very fast.....still pretty fast but as I said before I couldn't beat the reaction time of my coworkers who were ready to shoot at any movement. I totally agree with you which is why I place much more emphasis on sniffing trouble out (situational awareness) than draw speed.

Sarge, A+ Some folks place emphasis on speed while remaining in condition white mistakenly thinking that raw cat like speed will save the day. I really think they fail to understand that having the speed to draw and fire before the bad guy can pull the trigger doesn't automatically equal a win. You still have an armed bad guy pointing a gun at you. Better to avoid or prepare before it happens.

Pure speed has surely saved folks in the past and will in the future but situational awareness alone has and will continue to save many many more every day.
 
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When asked by a student how much time he'd have to draw in a real gunfight, Clint Smith said, "the rest of your life".

Clint Smith also points out he never saw a timer in a gunfight.

As for a demonstration of what good speed looks like, watch Gabe Suarez move laterally while drawing at the same time and hitting the target (don't forget that part).
The DVD is Close-Range Gunfighting.

Draw and hit speeds as discussed on this board are, I assume, from the timer. 1.5 sec. is good speed. Under two, not bad from concealed.
 
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