What rifle for hiking defense?

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul B.:
Remember what the bad guy said in A FISTFULL OF DOLLARS? No man can stand up to a man with a rifle, if he only has a pistol in his hands.[/quote]

He can if he has a piece of boiler plate under his serape. ;)
 
I gotta go along with the 45/70 too. I love my co-pilot. 6lbs, quick shooting and will knock the snot out of anything walking. Besides if a human gives you problems, just seeing the diameter of the bore will give him something to think about.
 
No offense Hueco, but you sound a bit unreasonable to me. How many rifles are you going to carry and hike with anyway? I am a gun enthusiast and have also worked as a wilderness guide and don't think I would want to be led on a trek by an 18 year old packing 2 long guns and acting as paranoid as you sound. When trekking through bear country one rifle or shotgun is sufficient, I promise! Please understand that this is not an attack on your age, only your thinking that a lever gun is not enough firepower for the wilderness. Generations of people have defended their lives quite effectively with the 5 shot capacity lever gun. Wake up!

[This message has been edited by patrickt66 (edited April 28, 2000).]
 
If you are ready have your long gun for four legged critters, why not carry some sort of semi-auto handgun for the two legged varmints? That way you could holster it where it would not be seen by the other hikers. I doubt many people are going to pose a problem until they are 5 yards from you. They will most likely looked like other hikers until they ask for all of your gear.
Just my thoughts on it.

markd
 
Seems the Marlin 1895SS 45-70 Guide Gun has had plenty of advocates already.
I've been wanting to get one for some time.
I looked at a couple at SHOT and looked at the CO-Pilot as well... Decided I dont need to spend the extra money just for the take down feature... Rich order one on the spot... lucky SOB... I'll stick with the Marlins.
 
I had the same problem as you and got myself a mini-14 with factory collapsable stock, add a quick detach B-square scope mount and 3X scope, and haven't looked back since. Sure not the greatest Bear cartridge, but I've seen a lot more dubious people than bears on my treks around the Sonaran Dessert (AZ). The advantage of the collasable stock is you can stick it in your backpack while crossing more heavily PC populated trails before you get into the deep national forest, no trail areas I like to go to. It's look, especially with 20 round mags is enough to discourage most from attempting harm on you.
 
Lever guns and shotguns make a hell of a lot of sense if its an all-around rifle you want.

FIRST choice is a remington 870 with a 20 inch deer barrel with rifle sights load it with 2 slugs and 2 buckshot loads. Bears nor badguys will walk away from solid hits from a 12 guage. It doesn't wiegh much (7 pounds) and if the season is right you can load it with smaller shot and hunt for the camp pot.

Second choice I'd go with a marlin 336 in 30-30 or similar "cowboy" gun. You just explain 'hey this is bear country, just in case. If you choose a pistol caliber , make sure its a 44 or 45 use hardcast lead bullets

3rd choice is the old m-1 carbine.. it doesn't look "nasty" until you stick the 30 round bannana clip in it, has the velocity of a .357 and wieghs only 5 pounds. Load it with soft points and use the 15 round magazines,they pack easier. It is not legal for game and you'd be insane to take after a bear with it, but some gun is better than no gun.

4th choice is a ruger mini 30. Its "deer legal" in many states and is the equivalent of a 30-30. leave the hi-cap mag in your pocket.. it will be awkward to get off your back with a hi-cap mag. Lightweight but mags are expensive.

Of course you could just get a dog. A properly trained a dog will warn you of approaching people and you can avoid animals like bears.. and if its really well trained go fetch that bird you just shot for the camp pot.

You should also re-read Rogan's bear mauling page if your gun isn't in your hands you are bear FOOD not a bear deterrant. Pepper spray is faster to employ than a rifle strapped to your pack. Keep in mind the weapon you choose will literaly have the crap beaten out of it (stock dings, water damage, rust, scratches, etc) so a heavy parkerized or stainless finish would be wise. a Plastic stock would be great too. For this reason alone an 870 express shotgun is probably the best bet.

You can easily fashion a scabbard for your long gun , carry it chamber empty (because when you draw over your shoulder you WILL point the muzzle at the people behind you) and don't make too much fuss over the presence of the gun.

Best of luck,

Dr.Rob
 
From what you all have said, and looking at ballistic charts and wildlife logistics, the only two rifles that would really do me any good would be a lever-gun in 45-70/44 Rem Mag/30-30 or an AK. Either would be nice to have anyway, and I love both. Looking at the two possible situations, the human-risk is greater. There are more humans out there, thus there is a greater chance of one of them being evil. Plus, a bear would come singly. And bears can be avoided/deterred by a lot more (or less depending on how you look at it) than just a gun. Loud noises (just talking loudly on the trail is enough ususally) can prevent most attacks/encounters. Humans aren't really like that. If one intends harm, no matter of banging pots will help. Humans could come singly, in pairs, and possibly more. Seeing as how the chance of meeting a bad human is greater than meeting a bad bear, the obvious thing to do would be to err to the side of a cartridge/rifle that is best for a human. Could a 7.62x39 kill a bear? Yes, at close range it could. Would it do it as effectively as a 45-70? No. but, I am more concerned about the humans than bears. I also want capacity. IMO, a long mag hanging down from a rifle is much more imposing than bore-diamter (just my opinion, I've done no scientific studies!! Just that I would be more turned off by a long mag than bore diamter -- At least to a certain degree. I don't care how long the mag is off a .22 for example. But you get my point I am sure). Sure, I might be unreasonable. I might also be wrong about all of this. But hey, can't I at least get a bit of credit for bringing it before all you guys? I know where the experience is! :) I know that I am inexperienced in a lot of things, rifle slection is one of them. Like I said -- I don't know it all. (and thank God for that) All of this post now assumes that I will be taking ONE rifle. Two would be nice, but as has been pointed out, I am not taking on platoons of bears and humans. No doubt, the thought of me wanting to take two rifles did make me sound paranoid. But I think that is just me being over-prepared. Being paranoid would make me not go at all. I want to get this right, I don't want to buy and take a rifle that won't do the best it can in the situation. So please, tear down my logic, rip my reasoning!

I want one rifle. One that can effectively take out multiple threats quickly at short range. It must also somehow look threatening enough to deter action. It must have enough firepower to also be capable of destroying a bear withing a few shots at close range.

(See, you guys HAVE made a big enough impression on me to change my idea of what I need. Don't stop now!!)

Thanks again all of you. I appreciate your patience with my inexperience. Have a great one!


Hueco


Dr. Rob, just read you post (wasn't there yet when I posted mine). Shotguns, like the one you talked about -- I agree. Looking at the collective amount of talk on shotguns in this thread, I have decided that it would be the perfect thing. Thanks again all!

[This message has been edited by Hueco (edited April 28, 2000).]
 
Hueco,
Sorry to be so rough on you earlier, my bad. Keep in mind what a park ranger thinks when he or worse, she, sees an AK verses a lever gun or shotgun. As I said earlier, I have worked as a wilderness guide and some of my clients did not appreciate my S&W 629 Classic that I packed even though we were in serious bear country. These, unfortunately,
are real world considerations that you need to keep in mind. Best of luck and feel free to contact me with any questions you may have.
patrickt66@hotmail.com

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Think!
 
I disagree with the shotgun. Pumps are the usual choice for this role but they are harder to shoot accurately because the fore end moves!

A lever gun in 44mag [with Federal's Cast Core or Garet 310] or 444 Marlin [with buffalo bore ammo] or a 45-70 [with buffalo bore or Garet ammo] is a good choice for 2 legs and for bears. Though I would recomend an ghost ring site or low power scope.

Another alternative would be a SMLE with most any load [for defense of people and defense from bear] this would give you 10 round mag and stripper clip loading.
 
Valid point about the muzzle moving while pumping a shotgun. But, doesn't every style of weapon have a certain intricacy that needs to be learned? Granted, this certain drawback on a shotgun could draw it back too far that it becomes a crippling tool in an encounter. But police and the military seem to think a lot of shotguns for certain situations -- they just learn "around" the gun. The only reason I bring this up is that it might not make a noticable differene in performance in the situation I could be in. The ranges would be tight, and since it is a shotgun, a muzzle move of reasonable amount would probably not mean the difference between a hit or miss like it would with a rifle. The reason why I said a shotgun would be perfect (or close to it) is that it met all my requirements I set. It's versatile on top of all that. With all the different loads available for shotguns, it's like having 3 or 4 differnet calibre rifles at hand (especially with a 3 1/2" chamber). I could load anythign from slugs/buckshot for bears to 7 1/2 shot in case I saw a clay target rise up ahead! They're light, reliable, and cheap. Plus, every person in the world can recognize a shotgun -- that means firepower recognition. It's not quite as scary looking to the clients or rangers. I mean, afterall -- it is just a shotgun. See...it fills all the points: nice looking to people that aren't in danger of being shot by it, but nasty looking to people who are in that danger. Well, true, it may not be perfect. It could be very close to perfect as I'll find though. IMO, an AK is a close second with leverguns in third.

Patrick, "rough" is somethign you weren't. I was lucky to have a guide read my post! For now, my "guiding" will only consist of taking friends out that want to go. But later on, I intend to get much more serious. I consider this time now as "practice." I want to learn all I can now, and do it correctly. Your experience just became mine once you told me -- that's why I asked! :D Thanks man!!

Hueco
 
Tell ya what, just a couple of hours ago, I picked up a Marlin 1894P. It's the .44 Mag carbine with a ported barrel (ports at 9, 11, 1, and 3 o'clock). This is the slickest little lever gun I've handled - It's more compact than my Winchester carbine, it feels sturdier, and the action cycles faster and is much smoother than the Winchester. In addition, it comes standard with sling swivel studs. In my opinion, all of these qualities make it ideal as a hiking carbine. I can't wait to shoot it!

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Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur.
Bulldawg's Firearms Page

[This message has been edited by Bulldog (edited April 28, 2000).]
 
Hueco,

I must admit I find your whole situation quit interesting. I have been leading small groups of 12-15 year old boys into the California Wilderness since 1994. Never have had a weapon. Never have had to deal with armed bandits, ferocious bears, or anything of that type. I have seen armed mule packers, but it wasn't a big deal. They more or less were packing to look like they were mean indimidating forces capable of destroying a rattlesnake with about 3 out of 15 shots they would let out in a quick barrage of 9mm fury.

No matter if you take a rifle or a shotgun, that should serve as enough intimidation. I would not cocentrate on high capacity, because that gives you a false reliance on it. You should rely on shot placement and effeciency. If you can't hit what you are aiming at, you are not in a good way.

A shotgun sounds like a sensible choice and as long as you practice, it is not going to matter at the ranges you are talking about. I find the barrel moving thing to be a non-factor as it will occur the same in a rifle. When you shoot, the gun moves! In addition, I am more than sure you can gain access to a handgun. Pack it along too. YOu are going to be in the middle of nowhere so don't worry about that stupid concealed weapon law. Hopefully no one will ever know you have it until unfortunately you need to use it. Just make sure you practice shooting with the handgun as well. They are not as easy to shoot accuratly as a shotgun or rifle without practice.

And lastly, proper preperation and caution will most likely keep you out of trouble. That should be your prefered method of defense.
 
ANY shot taken at a bear or worse you are likely to have your front right wiggling. 75 yards is a long way for a shotgun.. but by no means is a target OUT OF RANGE at 75.

Off a bench a remington 870 express with a rifled choke can place three slugs all touching each other at 50 yards. Yes this is hard on your shoulder and it kicks like a mule.. however when you are shooting "for real" you won't notice the recoil. You will NOT notice the forend moving.. and under heavy recoil the gun practicly cocks itself. MANY people who shoot lever guns LOOK DOWN at the action while working it.. this is worse with most bolt rifle shooters.. this doesn't happen with semi auto and pump action guns.

The whole reason I bought my slug barrel was dad and i were "flirting" with the idea of going black bear hunting and i was concerned my scoped rifle would be a hinderance in a rasberry patch overgrown with ferns three feet high. Later, my shot gun became my "un-pc gun with a magazine extenstion tube and a case of buckshot. I still take it to the woods as my back-up rifle for elk with its stock configuration and 3 inch max power slugs. i'm thinking about trying antelope with it for grins.

ANY rifle/shot gun should be able to hit an 8 inch plate at 100 yards period (even a 22). If YOU can't hit that you need to practice more.. its generally not the gun its the shooter. If your gun CAN'T produce that accuracy get rid of it.

i don't mean to go off on a rant here but SO OFTEN in these what if and what should I get discussions we seem to leave basic logic and reason behind in favor of anecdotal tirades about stopping power and mass armies of mutant drug lords and blood thirsty bears.

If the simple question was "HEY.. I have been thinking about taking a rifle with me when I go backpacking with my friends" sounds a LOT different than "which rifle should i take while "Guiding" hikers in the big bad woods"

Defensive carry of you RIFLE is in your hands, not strapped to your back.. but unless you are hunting this is generally committing a social faux-pas to your fellow hikers. keep in mind also that MANY national parks and open space PROHIBIT the prescence of firearms. be reasonable.. do you REALLY need a firearm where you are going?? If the answer is YES even a 22 rifle is lethal in skilled hands.. and won't bother ranger rick or your pals. ALWAYS get a small game license and the reason for the gun is never in question, know what's in season and the rules for taking game.

Bottom line is Hueco you have a LOT of decisions to make and think out before you EVER go into the woods armed "just in case".

Not trying to bust anyone's chops here but these are some really basic things to keep you safe and legal and informed.

Dr.Rob
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I disagree with the shotgun. Pumps are the usual choice for this role but they are harder to shoot accurately because the fore end moves![/quote]

In absolute terms of course this is right, but it certainly hasn't been a big enough issue to prevent police and military people world-wide (to say nothing of scads of Alaskan bush pilots) from choosing the riot gun for up close work with bad guys (and bears).

Don't underestimate the accuracy of a short barreled Rem. 870 or Win. 1300 with ghost ring sights until you've watched one being used by an expert (or, better yet, learned to use one yourself).

Am I saying an 870 or 1300 is more accurate than a 700 police rifle--or even a Win. 30-30? Of course not. But I'm still with the police, military, and North country pilots. When I think I might be up close and personal with major dangers in the woods, I take my 1300 Defender.
 
Well, maybe I can confuse the issue further :D
I work in the woods every day.(Logger) I spend a lot of time cruising timber and hiking through the woods. I used to carry a .44 Smith but it got to bothering my hip.

A couple years ago I picked up a 45-70 Co-pilot from Wild West Guns. This thing is a DREAM. True it holdes 5 rounds instead of 30 but I think it is likely enough. Late last year, before I heard that Marlin was coming out with a carbine version of their .44 rifle I bought on and had it shortened for a camp gun. IT IS GREAT!!!! :D :D :D :D :D
It is smaller and lighter than the 45-70 adn it does hold 8 rounds. The factory model is ported.

I picked up the .44 to leave in camp with my wife and/or son in case a nasty shows up. With 250 Nosler Partition hollow points, it will handle anything short of T-Rex or a really pi$$ed off Grizzly. Not too many Grizz around here.

From what you say, I'd go with the 1984P Marlin in .44 and stoke it with good ammo.

Rick

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After the raid in Miami, I'm so proud to be an American, I could just PUKE!

[This message has been edited by Speedy (edited April 29, 2000).]
 
You are obviously overreacting. Part of the fun of walking in the woods is to feel nature at its best. This means two things.

1. You need to fight an animal equally. For small squirrels and birds; use your two hands and feet only. For bigger bobcats and raccoons, you can use a small knife. The rule to follow is that your knife cannot be longer than the animals teeth or claws. For hunting deer or dogs; you can use a large knife. For all other bigger animals you can use a 2 foot sword, axe or long hammer.

2. Guns are to be used on humans only. I do not believe that bears or mountain lions really exist any longer in the usa. If you do find one; you are expendable, the endangered bear or lion deserves to live more than you.

You are only 18; that means that it is too soon for you to be killing some idiot who is scared of rifle toting characters like you.

Being vulnerable is the only way that birds and little furry animals will come and talk to you. They really do know what a gun is!

In case you think I am a namby pamby; I have actually fought and scared people myself. I do know that this country will only be safe if one person takes the initiative and tones down the annie.

If you arm up in the jungle; you can be sure that crazies like me are going in for a feast (especially an 18 year old BBQ).


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Hueco,

Up until this point in the conversation I was pretty much in agreement with those who were suggesting either a shotgun or a lever action rifle. However, based on that last post, perhaps you should reconsider the AK. Or perhaps a Barrett 50 BMG!
 
In light of all of these recent events, I too must reevaluate my selections. I really think if you have the security of your party in mind, it is essential you make one of these selections.

M249 SAW in 5.56mm
m249-ed1.jpg


M2HB .50 Cal
313.jpg


A shinny looking mini-gun of some sort
314.jpg


Of course you might have to charge your hikers a little more to pay for these self-protection methods and for the mule train you are going to have to have to haul all of the necessary items in, but insure them they are paying for their ultimate security. Good luck ;)

[This message has been edited by El Rojo (edited April 29, 2000).]
 
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