What Response?

The problem Archer is that these things are beyond the capability of many people and are over done in the media, therefore some people believe them to be impossible. Mall Ninjas do abound, but they are not nearly as common on gun boards as they used to be (because they get called out). However the existence of mall ninjas and bad movies does not preclude any ordinary person from being trained in MMA or combatives and being perfectly capable of disarming an armed man. In fact such things are common enough that I would say that CHLs need to train for and think through a response to a physical attack.

It is quite possible for many people to have an unarmed response that would be dynamic enough that the attacker would be caught off guard. While quite risky and not the ideal solution it would be better than a lot of the alternatives, such as relying on your attackers mercy.
 
MTT TL I don't believe it's impossible I said that such acts are beyond my capabilities, not everyone elses'. For that reason I choose to carry a handgun.

If a situation came down to life or death I'd be willing to try anything, even if I was unarmed. Hose to the face, Krav Maga you name it I'd try it so that I wouldn't die.

However what I am saying and have been saying is that there is no excuse for the situation that was presented to come to that end. The guy wanted the car and the tv, give them to him and tell him to have a nice day, end of attack before it even began.
 
I was just explaining one of the many reasons why people attack people who talk about using martial arts to defend themselves in the internet. It isn't as though no one uses martial arts.

Strangely when people started posting on the internet about a dozen years ago about using guns for self defense, gun owners faced a lot of the same idiocy. So now we have gun forums. We have martial arts forums for the same reason. It is too bad that some people are so near sighted that they simply don't understand how the world works.
 
People attack people on the internet because it makes them feel better about themselves ;). In all seriousness I do understand that and it was kind of my original point. I know that some people choose their own bodies over a weapon and I can respect that.
 
I know that some people choose their own bodies over a weapon and I can respect that.
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That's the purpose of Combat Martial Arts. There is no a gaurantee that you will be able to pull out your weapon, or even be carrying a weapon for that matter. Especially with today's laws about concealed carry, some places, you CAN'T have a gun with you; your next and only line of defense is the science of Hand-to-Hand Combat.

I have been through a few self defense classes, as well as Combat Hapkido and Karate. And am starting Krav Maga this month.

Personally, I would rather break a few bones, and possibly kill the BG with my bare hands, than shoot him. I am more likely to get sued using a weapon than physical force-even if I am completely in line with the law-take the BG's own gun from him and use it against him; perfect scenario of true and lawful self defense.
 
thesheepdog said:
I am more likely to get sued using a weapon than physical force-even if I am completely in line with the law-take the BG's own gun from him and use it against him; perfect scenario of true and lawful self defense.
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No you're not. Deadly force is deadly force. There is no difference legally between shooting a man between the eyes, breaking his neck or shooting him with his gun or yours.


The problem with all this "I'm just going to learn karate." business is that it takes 20 years to be proficient enough to use it as an actual defense. Been there, done that. It's not a 1 year, 2 year, 5 year or 10 year thing. Every true "master" of some form of martial arts that I have spoken to agrees with me. From the 8th degree black belt to the guy that hold black belts in 3 or 4 (maybe more) different forms/styles. It's pretty well accepted that it's 15+ years before you are truly formidable in an open environment without rules. Kicking some other karate guys butt in a tournament is entirely different than the life-or-death "game" out on the street.
 
I'd be willing to give some things I've only read about a shot if it was my last line of defense. Better to die trying than not at all. The point is I'd like to be as safe as possible, I'm rather proficient at knife fighting but I'm not going to carry a knife as my only tool of defense. A handgun is the most lethal thing I can legally carry so I'm going to do that over learning all sorts of martial arts.
 
The problem with all this "I'm just going to learn karate." business is that it takes 20 years to be proficient enough to use it as an actual defense
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Yeah that's Karate not Combat Martial arts.

Now with Krav Maga, Combat Hapkido, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, and Jeet Kun Do, you're learning to defend yourself, rather than practicing with ritual weapons and moves. In a "no rules" environment. You focus on defending yourself in real world applications.

Krav Maga is taught to the CIA, and many other Private Security organizations, to defend themselves while they're out in dangerous territory.
 
Yes and no, PK...

Hey, PK, as usual, I find myself mostly agreeing with you.

But, as often happens, I don't agree, entirely.

I've mentioned this before, but I have a buddy who's a narcotics detective. His unit does street-level stuff, in plainclothes, making drug buys. He's very often in close quarters with dealers.

He's had guns pulled on him on several occasions, at very close ranges.

He has yet to try to pull his pistol from concealment. Instead, he's applied some pretty devastating jujutsu, breaking at least two BG's arms, and disarming each. Trick is, he sees them start the draw, and he immediately closes any distance - or that's how it has gone, so far.

He hasn't been training for 20 years. More than 10, yes. 20, no.

I know a Corrections Officer who was attacked by a shiv-wielding inmate, once. The CO had no idea what to do, and froze like a deer in the headlights. He got stabbed in the shoulder, and other CO's came to the rescue.

At that point, the CO decided he'd better improve his H2H skills.

After 6 months at the Florida dojo where I started my aikido training, the CO was attacked by another inmate. In this case, the inmate was wielding a bush axe (my CO friend was supervising a road crew; the attacker was a trustee - go figure).

The CO did not freeze; instead, he stepped inside the arc of the attack (so if he'd been hit, it would have been by the wooden shaft and not the metal blade) and executed a turning weapon-takeaway / throw that we used to practice with against bokken (wooden training version of a katana). He apparently executed it pretty well, because he ended up in possession of the bush axe, and the inmate went flying over the CO's hip, landed on his head, and was knocked out.

Again, the CO had 6 months of training at that point.

Would most people be able to defend themselves adequately with 6 months' training? Probably not. One thing the CO brought to training that worked in his favor was a very serious training mindset - he'd been stabbed already, and he worked hard to prevent that from recurring.

My last point would be that, even if it were to take 20 years before you could really defend yourself well - that just means there's no time like the present to start learning.
 
MLeake,

I think we're in pretty good agreement.

It may not be "20" years, but it's certainly 10+ in almost all cases.

Your CO friend, even though it was only 6 months of H2H training since he was attacked, also had significant training previously. He chose to "improve" his skills and, I suspect, the second outcome had more to do with choosing to act and/or stress/fear inoculation than actually an improved skill set. That's not to say that he hadn't improved but, quite often, doing ANYTHING is safer than doing nothing.


I also agree that today is a good day to start training, should someone be so inclined.


Sheepdog,

I use "karate" as a generic term. Yes, any of these skill sets can be helpful. Intense and regular training is a good thing. I think these statements should be qualified though. No one is going to take some H2H class on Tuesdays and Thursdays for an hour and a half and think that 2 months later they're going to kick the crap out of some dude that pulls a gun on them out on the street.

Yes, you can learn things in ONE class that can be helpful. Particularly, there are training classes geared for women to learn to defend themselves on the street that are very short and have been proven to be helpful.

However, there's a big, BIG gap between "I'm going to take some classes to improve my chances." and "I'd just whack him there, grab him here and shoot him with his own gun.", as if it's a 10 hour course and everything always goes your way.
 
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Sheepdog,

I use "karate" as a generic term. Yes, any of these skill sets can be helpful. Intense and regular training is a good thing. I think these statements should be qualified though. No one is going to take some H2H class on Tuesdays and Thursdays for an hour and a half and think that 2 months later their going to kick the crap out of some dude that pulls a gun on them out on the street.

Yes, you can learn things in ONE class that can be helpful. Particularly, there are training classes geared for women to learn to defend themselves on the street that are very short and have been proven to be helpful.

However, there's a big, BIG gap between "I'm going to take some classes to improve my chances." and "I'd just whack him there, grab him here and shoot him with his own gun.", as if it's a 10 hour course and everything always goes your way.
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Peetzakilla,

I know what you're saying, but as far as "one not being able to defend themselves after 2 months of training" is somewhat of an undertestimation of the human's motives.

You'd actually be very surpised how your chances of defending yourself actually go up, after just a few self defense classes. Given, it's not to say that we're 100% when the threat comes to us, but we stand a better chance now, than we did previously.

It's a mindset, not just a skill. It's determination and motive that can help you defend yourself from harm. If you firstly apply the rule of "no rules" when someone tries to hurt you, plus the training you already have, you've got some excellent chances of defeating the threat.

It's plain and simple.
 
I was just explaining one of the many reasons why people attack people who talk about using martial arts to defend themselves in the internet. It isn't as though no one uses martial arts.
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Martial arts is learning how to fight, same as boxing with the exception of feet. BTDT, I started with Judo, taught me how to land if knocked down so I dont get hurt, also great holds and a couple moves could cause death in the opponent, then onto tae kwon do learned how to move, was boxing since 8 a family thing. Even with all of this I would hesitate moving on anyone that is behind me with a gun at my back. Is kinda how I got shot in my left shoulder years ago. Course at the time we didnt fight in the streets with guns, guys had a problem would meet up in the park and have a go at it.
 
...I would have begun talking to the BG, spun around, put his shooting arm in an arm-bar, broken his arm, then a knee to the face. That's what I would do.
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Somebody has been watching way too much television.

Me............I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why they feel the need to leave the gun in the house cause he's afraid it will get wet.
 
I am going to have to back up sheepdog on this. 22 years ago when I joined the military they gave us half a day of HTH combat which was kind of a motivational training bad joke.

My how times have changed.

These days some units regularly practice combatives and MMA with qualified instructors. After just a few weeks of training even the most ineffective fighters can mop the mats with and choke out someone untrained. Learn and practice some basic and advanced moves, maintain a high level of physical fitness and discipline and you are world's ahead of any untrained fighter on the street, even when the bad guys don't fight fair. Combatives is all about and for "cheating", the only unfair fight is the one you lose.

Would I rather have a gun? Hell yes. But does it mean I am helpless if I don't? Hell no. This isn't for everyone, as several have pointed out not everyone is capable or willing to perform physically. That is too bad, it is one less tool in the tool box for them.

I don't know a thing about Karate, Ju jitsu or any of that other stuff. I hear you do a lot of exercise, practice making some motions and then play fight at half speed or something like that... honestly it is just what I hear because I don't know. Most of the training I have done is full speed stuff with guys my size (pretty big). Tapping out is part of the training but sometimes guys have too much pride to tap out so they go under. Sometimes people break things. That is about as real as it gets. Anyone who thinks it is ineffective is welcome to come over for a few hours to get the idea. This is not professional wrestling, it is the real deal.

It all goes to training and mindset. If you believe it to be impossible, than you will be in for a nasty surprise some day. The day the bad guy takes your gun away from you that is.
 
Some of us haven’t trained in karate, jujitsu, tae kwan do, hee hang hie, or chow mein goo pah. When we meet King Kong we buy him a beer and ask to see pictures of his kids.

Perhaps some persons can move five feet, break a guy’s arm, and put him on the ground before he can move his finger a half inch, but most of us cannot.

If I’m facing a drawn gun I’ll not just let the guy have the TV, I’ll carry it to my truck for him. Then tell him the truck will soon need an oil change, on cold mornings it’s hard to start, and the passenger side window won’t go all the way down.

Reality is a bothersome thing.
 
So does anyone notice that the guy in the story didn't get shot?

In fact he did the right thing, even if he had been carrying.

Give the guy your stuff and let him go.
 
So does anyone notice that the guy in the story didn't get shot?
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Does anyone notice in the story the guy didn't have a clue? He was totally unaware and unprepared for what happened. The perp could just as easily have killed him and his family (had they been in the house) as not. He was just lucky. The dice were rolled and his number never came up this time.

The thing to learn from the OP is that one needs to be aware and prepared ALL the time, especially when one is at home. If you are a husband and/or a father, it is YOUR responsibility to be on guard for dangerous or deadly circumstances and to keep your family safe. Anything less, IMHO, on your part, is negligence.
 
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