What REMINGTON has to say about MSNBC's report on the Model 700...
- Thread starter BusGunner007
- Start date
This is far deeper than employees, it's internal memos that state unimpeachably that Remington knew they had a problem, were offered solutions and modifications that cost pennies, and they chose to evade and deny a problem existed rather than acknowledge it and fix it. It's way beyond disgruntled employees. Even being able to see the Remington spin from their angle shows a profoundly biased perspective and refusal to see facts as they are.
Remington screwed up.... it's that simple, survival of the fittest and smartest and deeply stupid management decisions were made. You going to defend and protect people with no scruples?
I'm glad to see quite a few willing to acknowledge this is about bad customer service and lying to customers, that's not okay.
Remington screwed up.... it's that simple, survival of the fittest and smartest and deeply stupid management decisions were made. You going to defend and protect people with no scruples?
I'm glad to see quite a few willing to acknowledge this is about bad customer service and lying to customers, that's not okay.
Uncle Buck
New member
chilco wrote:
I wonder how many of these rifles have been adjusted?
I know everyone keeps saying the original designer said there were flaws with the design (I can not get the original story to come up on my computer!), but no one has said what those flaws were.
If the flaw truly mechanical, or is only a flaw when people adjust the trigger? If I bought a used 700, how do I check to make sure the trigger is correct and has either been replaced or not adjusted?
Like the distributor and points on my tractor, it not as good as solid state and they wear. I can adjust them back into position and it'll run great. This is not a design flaw (Using technology of the time).
I wonder how many of these rifles have been adjusted?
I know everyone keeps saying the original designer said there were flaws with the design (I can not get the original story to come up on my computer!), but no one has said what those flaws were.
If the flaw truly mechanical, or is only a flaw when people adjust the trigger? If I bought a used 700, how do I check to make sure the trigger is correct and has either been replaced or not adjusted?
Like the distributor and points on my tractor, it not as good as solid state and they wear. I can adjust them back into position and it'll run great. This is not a design flaw (Using technology of the time).
Remington Action
I'm not against Remington, but their lawyers have to take the position to defend the company and I believe what others have said of the posts here. I have to admit for the price of the rifle the quality of machining is not impressive at all. Surplus firearms have better and stronger actions, but are not as accurate due to the intent of making the rifle at the time.
I'm not against Remington, but their lawyers have to take the position to defend the company and I believe what others have said of the posts here. I have to admit for the price of the rifle the quality of machining is not impressive at all. Surplus firearms have better and stronger actions, but are not as accurate due to the intent of making the rifle at the time.
Double Naught Spy
New member
I am not sure what you are looking for. The flaw is that the gun can fire at a time when the trigger is not being pulled. Reports have included the gun firing when the safety was disengaged and the gun firing when the shooter attempted to open the bolt to remove a live round from the chamber.
The technical aspect of the flaw was discussed in the show that you can't get to come up on the computer, but JBelk made available his explanatory document on the matter in the other thread that covers the issue quite well.
http://www.flinthillsdiesel.com/Remington-Walker.pdf
Mechanical, but apparently exacerbated when people improperly tinker with the fire control.
You could send it to Remington. However, given that the problem is mechanical, assuming you didn't buy one of the X triggers, the problem is still possible in brand new guns.
The problem isn't like adjustable points on your tractor. Some folks argue it is a design flaw. Walker claimed it was an assembly flaw. Either way, some rifles leaving Remington had the problem and Remington knew it.
mapsjanhere
New member
Many guns have bad designs that allow you to produce dangerous situations. My favorite example is the still praised P08 that you could take apart cocked and loaded, and if you gripped the barrel the wrong way it went off.
Here we have a flaw discovered during a time when gun handling was supposed to be the guy's responsibility, not something made as safe as possible by 5 safeties and 20 warning stickers. It all changed after the Ford Pinto disaster, and guess what, Remington changed the design at that point once it became clear that class action suits can bankrupt a company. The rest of the story will play out in courts, but until they work their way through 50 year old memos, deal with changes in ownership and 50 different statutes of limitation we'll probably be all dead by the time it ends.
Here we have a flaw discovered during a time when gun handling was supposed to be the guy's responsibility, not something made as safe as possible by 5 safeties and 20 warning stickers. It all changed after the Ford Pinto disaster, and guess what, Remington changed the design at that point once it became clear that class action suits can bankrupt a company. The rest of the story will play out in courts, but until they work their way through 50 year old memos, deal with changes in ownership and 50 different statutes of limitation we'll probably be all dead by the time it ends.
I have no dog in this fight. I don't own a 700 but have always wanted to add one to the collection. I truly hope no M700 ever ADs again due to the design / assembly flaw. Still, those who argue that this is a conspiracy by the liberal media are kidding themselves. Someone earlier said that MSNBC had trumped this up. Clearly that person is clueless since the piece didn't even run on MSNBC - it was CNBC. And there is a big difference between the two. CNBC to me is the least biased of the cable networks because they focus on business and bottom lines. MSNBC is WAY off in left field and has no credibility. That is not the case with CNBC. I have seen them run purely analytical pieces on companies like Strum Ruger, S&W, FN, and Olin. Again the bottom line was focused on with no mention what-so-ever of guns and shooting being pro or con. So we shouldn't try to blame the media for Remington's problem here. That dog won't hunt.
There is no doubt, based on the numerous documented cases, Remington's own internal memos, and the honest testimony of Mr. Walker himself, that a certain percentage of 700s that went out the door were dangerous to the point of liability for the company. Even if that percentage is only 1/2 of 1% of 6 million rifles, that is still 30,000 defective units. Sadly, the percentage is probably a lot higher than that. Remington continues to try to get out of this as cheaply as possible. With competetion now so fierce in this market segment (Ruger, Sako/Tikka, Win, Savage, CZ, Browning/Howa, TC) anything short of a legitimate across the board no charge recall with no expiration is likely the death nell for the dominant market position Remington once enjoyed. I just hope they don't drag Marlin down with them (both quality wise and financially).
There is no doubt, based on the numerous documented cases, Remington's own internal memos, and the honest testimony of Mr. Walker himself, that a certain percentage of 700s that went out the door were dangerous to the point of liability for the company. Even if that percentage is only 1/2 of 1% of 6 million rifles, that is still 30,000 defective units. Sadly, the percentage is probably a lot higher than that. Remington continues to try to get out of this as cheaply as possible. With competetion now so fierce in this market segment (Ruger, Sako/Tikka, Win, Savage, CZ, Browning/Howa, TC) anything short of a legitimate across the board no charge recall with no expiration is likely the death nell for the dominant market position Remington once enjoyed. I just hope they don't drag Marlin down with them (both quality wise and financially).
For me, this is one of the key statements from the link in Double Naught Spy's post#27.
My general understanding is the connector position is not positive, but is dependent on springs and, also not having something that prevents the connector from going to proper battery. Walker later (circa 1948) proposed a design change that would have made the position of the connector positive related to the safety lever, but that design change was not adopted.
My general understanding is the connector position is not positive, but is dependent on springs and, also not having something that prevents the connector from going to proper battery. Walker later (circa 1948) proposed a design change that would have made the position of the connector positive related to the safety lever, but that design change was not adopted.
Silence
Well, now in two threads I have pretty much beat this to death. But I notice that every time there is a request for someone to address the actual design flaw, or to refute Walker's comments, or Remington's internal memo's, then there is silence. And I think that is the crux of the problem for Remington. Their PR campaign will help in the public domain, but in court they will have to answer to those facts.
As far as gun rights support, I have been supporting gun rights for all of my 60 years of shooting, but I don't think supporting a bad decision by Remington will help my gun rights......at least that's my view.
Well, now in two threads I have pretty much beat this to death. But I notice that every time there is a request for someone to address the actual design flaw, or to refute Walker's comments, or Remington's internal memo's, then there is silence. And I think that is the crux of the problem for Remington. Their PR campaign will help in the public domain, but in court they will have to answer to those facts.
As far as gun rights support, I have been supporting gun rights for all of my 60 years of shooting, but I don't think supporting a bad decision by Remington will help my gun rights......at least that's my view.
Uncle Buck
New member
Thanks Double Naught Spy, I was able to open your link and actually read the article. I think based on what I have read, I would probably pass on a 700, unless it was such a good deal and I could easily replace the trigger.
I guess the original question I should have asked was "Why is it a flaw? Mechanically speaking, what is/was happening with-in the system to allow it to accidentally discharge?" Now that I have read the article you linked to, I definitely understand.
One more request: Is there another link to where the inventor himself says the design is flawed?
I am not trying to add to the conspiracy theories, but... (always a but in here somewhere)
Why would Remington risk tarnishing their good name and reputation over something like this?
I guess the original question I should have asked was "Why is it a flaw? Mechanically speaking, what is/was happening with-in the system to allow it to accidentally discharge?" Now that I have read the article you linked to, I definitely understand.
One more request: Is there another link to where the inventor himself says the design is flawed?
I am not trying to add to the conspiracy theories, but... (always a but in here somewhere)
Why would Remington risk tarnishing their good name and reputation over something like this?
TMackey said:
Yeah in 1948, now I think that is about 300 mil or so.
Here is another sad part of this ordeal. I personally doubt that every case of an AD is really due to this trigger safety issue. I think some are probably due to someone just pulling the trigger, but since there is a flaw Remington will now inherit the total package. Maybe not fair, but that's how it goes.
Uncle Buck said:
Don't want to answer for Double Naught Spy, but I heard Walker say that in the TV interview. He also said that he sent several letters asking for a design change. I think they are a matter of record. He also made a new design to solve the problem that was rejected due to the above mentioned 5.5 cents per rifle. Also a matter of record.
Double Naught Spy
New member
You could have answered for me, or Uncle Buck can go back to the other thread and read the information provided in the various links and get up to speed on the issue himself.
skydiver3346
New member
Remington 700 experience
Well, I wouldn't have believed such a great firearm as the model 700 would have "problems" with their trigger but IT HAPPENED TO ME.....
Was in my treestand three years ago and hunting with my wife's Model 700
Mountain Rifle (7mm-08). A nice 6 point buck appeared just before evening and as I pushed the safety to fire position IT WENT OFF..... Scared the you know what out of me (and the deer) and I thought I must have accidentally pulled the trigger. Two weeks later on the range, the same thing happened again. Took it to the gunsmith and he told me nothing was wrong that he could find. No one was aware of this type of malfunction back then (that I am aware of) so ended up trading it for a Ruger in 6mm. Looking back now, I believe that the trigger was the problem since reading all the articles on the model 700 that have recently surfaced.
Hope they get it squared away as I have always really liked the Remington 700 rifles.
Well, I wouldn't have believed such a great firearm as the model 700 would have "problems" with their trigger but IT HAPPENED TO ME.....
Was in my treestand three years ago and hunting with my wife's Model 700
Mountain Rifle (7mm-08). A nice 6 point buck appeared just before evening and as I pushed the safety to fire position IT WENT OFF..... Scared the you know what out of me (and the deer) and I thought I must have accidentally pulled the trigger. Two weeks later on the range, the same thing happened again. Took it to the gunsmith and he told me nothing was wrong that he could find. No one was aware of this type of malfunction back then (that I am aware of) so ended up trading it for a Ruger in 6mm. Looking back now, I believe that the trigger was the problem since reading all the articles on the model 700 that have recently surfaced.
Hope they get it squared away as I have always really liked the Remington 700 rifles.
Skydiver3346 said:
Sounds like the classic safety failure we have been discussing. When the connector gets out of position it can fire when the safety is moved to the off position. You may or may not always be able to repeat the failure.
Good that it was pointing in a safe direction, but any time a firearm goes off when not intended it's dangerous.
Uncle Buck
New member
Geeze Double Naught, your a bit testy 
I went to the other link and did quite a bit of reading, but I could not find anything documenting the original designers warnings. I was hoping to hear him say or read something he wrote. The CNBC website does not play the full video for me, I clicked on five different links and they all stop after about two minutes.
I did find this document: http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf From the drinnonlaw firm website that further clarifies the "Tricking" of the safety and how it could cause an unintentional firing.
I went to the other link and did quite a bit of reading, but I could not find anything documenting the original designers warnings. I was hoping to hear him say or read something he wrote. The CNBC website does not play the full video for me, I clicked on five different links and they all stop after about two minutes.
I did find this document: http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf From the drinnonlaw firm website that further clarifies the "Tricking" of the safety and how it could cause an unintentional firing.
BusGunner007
New member
How many of you have gone to the Remington site and watched the videos?