What really happens in a real fight?

The Observer:

Let me quote you here "A farm boy can beat a black belter of any martial arts if the farm boy has a strong body and knows the basic of boxing and basic blockings."

I am sorry, but that kind of statement makes me wonder about the quality of "black belters" you have been exposed to.

So-called "traditional Karate" training has been found be lacking in realistic street fighting techniques, but that does not mean a "farm boy" can beat any martial artist.

In fact, that very statement tells me that you have been only exposed to unrealistic, possibly fluff, martial artists (the kind that teach Tae Kwon Do as "Korean Karate").

I urge this "farm boy" to show up at a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school or a Shooto gym (or even a Muay Thai school) and try to use his minimal boxing skills and see what happens.

Man, did you miss out on the martial arts/no hold barred fighting scene for the past ten years or what?

Dragoontooth:

We've already had this discussion. You already explained to me why you didn't train at Kodokan or at a University Judo club (I know, too tough, too competitive).

But you mention Shooto (ahhh, music to my ears, as I practice it). You ever check out KzFactory (Sato Rumina) or Pure-Bred gym (Enson Inoue)?

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 16, 2000).]
 
true enough, Skorzeny. Enson Inoue also happens to be from Hawaii so that would have been interesting ... but there are LOTS of good schools where i am as well. it's just a matter of finally accepting what's necessary and going over the *pacifist* reasons one by one and seeing that preparedness is above all what counts. will keep you posted.

Observer, not to pry too hard but having lived in various countries in Asia made me wonder where you're from to be in such a hostile environment. certainly not japan or korea, as the weapons laws are rigorously enforced by very efficient police forces. i was thinking maybe thailand or indonesia.

then i noticed your profile says your server is *egis.net* ... if i'm right that's a singapore-based service. i goto bladeforums.com and there's this outrageous liar by the name of Nick1016 there (for those of you who want to really bust a gut laughing goto http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001782.html and take a look at how this moron whines) ... and he also uses egis.net, and i KNOW he's from singapore.

coincidence? i hope i'm wrong, but please clear up where you're from so i can at least take it as a travel advisory, since you describe so many ugly situations and general chaos. by the way i was born in japan and reside in hawai'i.
 
Skorzeny & dragoontooth73: I have great respect to those who have really studied true martial arts of any form for the purpose of self defense and body conditioning.

My point only is to answer the question "What really happens in real fight" and can we really use the different methods of blocking, parrying, punching, locking, throwing and many forms. My answer to that is, we can use some of it, but not exactly the way we are taught. Be realistic, that in actual fight or combat we just throw punches and kicks simultaneously and if we grab each other to our opponents we try to release or get out from his grapples or perhaps we bite or break his elbows and neck. Do you think that you have still a premeditated techniques that youa re going to apply. As good martial artist say, if some one holds you don't think any techniques but just strike him and in that way it will shock him and perhaps his hold to you will be released.

If you live in slum areas and and see the exconvicts and other kinds of people who happens to be in actual stabbing or riot I think you would not try to use your being a martial artist in case you will be accosted by them. Of course if there is no room to evade or retreat we will fight back and use our learnings inself defense but the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Aikido we have studied will not guarranty that we are not being scratched or seriously wounded also. Or maybe, when you are in real trouble (hand to hand fighting) you might forget your martial arts but fight like a common man using all what he got in his body.

As I said a good martial artist will not demean the forms of other kinds of martial arts, but looking at your writings you look down karate and tekwondo as second to your Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. This has been discussed many times inside TFL (by my readings when I did not sign in yet). And everyone agreed that in actual combat be it in barehand and in pistol we just employ many informal forms of fighting for survival that even the two stances of shooting is not present anymore in actual fighting.

What if I am an Indonesians, Malaysian or asian - am I second to your race as caucasian (that is out of the subject) but we are here to discussed reality and accept factual things.

Respected co-TFLer's I am the same with you who have read every martial arts site in the web especially Blade forum as you've mention and I think (correct me if I am wrong) Equalizer and Parabellum are from Blade forum and I think even skorzeny.

I was trained also with rigid martial arts style without the fancy uniforms and padings to be placed in our body during tournament.

To sum up, what we have learned in any martial arts is a big help for us for self defense but if you asked "What really happen in actual fight" then I would humbly say all the paticipants will be hurt but we have a better edge then the one who has no so much training. Remember Vietnam considered a 3rd rate in military tatics (what happened we've got lesson from them). Thats my observation.

Thanks
 
Skorzeny
Should we let them in on The Mental Edge?

------------------
Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
-------------------------------------------------------------------
She doesn't have bad dreams because she's made of plastic...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
bad Kiki! No karaoke in the house!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Flynt is right. You guys stink!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter McWilliams - Murdered by the DEA
 
*The Mental Edge* ... ? ... sounds almost kinky ... :p ... seriously if someone wants to expound on it that's fine with me :)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Observer:
What if I am an Indonesians, Malaysian or asian - am I second to your race as caucasian (that is out of the subject) but we are here to discussed reality and accept factual things.[/quote]

i happen to be mixed-asian and i find this forum to be one of the most enlightened i have ever come across on the net. i am VERY sick of the argument that caucasians are by inherent nature, racist thugs. that assumption shows a total lack of humanity ... to bring that up here, entirely out of the context of this thread to boot, shows a serious lack of taste.

i'm going to go off tangent here, but it struck me over the weekend (in the aftermath of getting blasted on really bad gin on my bday) that i've maybe been too hard on Observer? glad to see that it isn't much of an issue (yet, anyways) but here's a story on why, perhaps, i asked where in Asia he's from.

last summer a friend of mine, who happens to be an ibm exec based in singapore, got a nasty, sexually explicit email in her webmail account. she forwarded it to me, whereupon i asked a few cracker friends (cracker being computer vandal, not white supremacist in this case) to lightly *nuke* the sender in question. done within a matter of hours. end of story? wrong. she then got a call on her company celphone from an unknown perp who proceeded to threaten to rape and kill her. now only TWO other people knew that # and they both happened to be her immediate superiors in the company (she gets all her other calls screened through a private secretary and forwarded to her) ... she was, understandably, scared to death. right after it happened she asked me for help, and i told her:

(1) tell her superiors and everyone on the floor what happened
(2) mark down time, everything she can remember about the conversation, call the cops
(3) talk to the ibm security team
(4) call the phone company and have them do a trace on it
(5) get all parties listed above to cooperate

i told her if he's serious enough to get her private corporate # then he obviously knows where she works and he'll try to show up at work ... to have friends with her in the parking area, to and from work, everywhere ... and lo and behold, the VERY NEXT DAY the perp shows up IN THE LOBBY OF THE BUILDING and makes a call ... phone company traces it, security moves in, bags the perp, cops come and pick him up, end of story? wrong ... two days later, as she's driving home from work, a white toyota pulls her porsche over; as she gets out of the car, a masked assailant with shades and a baseball cap comes out and beats her up IN PUBLIC and drives off ... needless to say for the people who drove by IN RUSH HOUR and did NOTHING while this attack was in progress, for them i have nothing but contempt ... she ends up in the hospital, all lacerations and bruises; the perp struck her repeatedly in the face ... i call her up to see how she's doing, and hear what happened ... i was working in japan at the time and when i heard the news suffice to say i was stunned. i prepared to break my work contract and fly over. i told her then to:

(1) write down every detail of the attack.
(2) make a police report.
(3) not to trust the singapore police (as they were stupid enough to let the perp out in the first place) but to hire the best private investigation agency, and have them track down the perp (she remembered the color of the car, the make, and 3 of the license plate numbers).

i then called in a couple of favors: first from a then-friend in singapore ... a drug dealer whose gf panicked, said it must have been a gang-related attack, and said she couldn't have her bf involved in it and the cops should be called ... but she could "drop by and tuck my friend in bed and see if she as ok" ... needless to say i have nothing further to do with either of the morons, may they burn quietly in hell. i then contacted my twin sister in hong kong, and i asked her to contact a couple of *red poles* (triad killers) who could go over there and clean this mess up ... yes i know this is ILLEGAL but my friend meant a lot to me, and i'd rather have this on my conscience than her murdered and raped ... and i was NOT going to ask my uncle in the triads to clean this up ... however this all became moot because the very next day, the private eye tracked the perp down; 30 of her friends went over, found him, beat him up throughly, and turned him over to the now-chastened cops who put the perp away, without bail.

... if she'd had the option of CCW she would have been able to at least sleep well at nights (this whole mess took about 4-5 days) ... now i know that in japan, korea, china, hong kong, taiwan, singapore, you can FORGET about that option because private ownership of firearms is strictly regulated ... in malaysia i'd assume the same. in thailand, the philippines, brunei, or indonesia, i'd assume that with a little $$$ you could get around it.

personal security in some of the more *enlightened* asian nations is just laughable ... witness the example above in singapore, of all places. now i know that i've seen yakuza enforcers try to muscle out shopkeepers in japan, the same in korea ... the situation Observer described before with the thugs in his shop sounds like a classic triad shakedown ... question being of course, where? but i think that the question was answered in a roundabout way ... indonesia ... and as for THAT country, when the riots were going on heavy a couple of years ago in jakarta and ethnic chinese were getting raped and murdered, i was dating a girl from there who worried every day which one of her relatives would die (and some did) ... none of the ethnic chinese had firearms, having been told by the *enlightened* government that they didn't need any ... needless to say this is a far cry from the LA riots where korean-americans had weapons, and used them to defend themselves from thuggery.

my point?

faced with a situation like the stalking my friend had, or the mass pillaging my ex's family had to suffer, nothing is going to guarantee personal safety more than a good solid firearm, with the discretion and training to use it ... martial arts training is good; and honing the body, sharpening reflexes, can't ever be for the worse. training for reality should be the only consideration in choosing a discipline, unless you have other reasons (such as aesthetics, which was mine - but remember, i have no delusions about being a badass street fighter) ... and if preparation for facing reality is the sole criterion for how good a martial art discipline is, then by all means a *good* martial artist should slag a style that doesn't service that requirement, but makes facetious claims to do so.

heck ... this is so long and disorganized ... sorry ppl

[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 18, 2000).]
 
The Observer:

You seem to assuming A LOT of things without really knowing so.

For example, why do you assume that I look down on Karate or Tae Kwon Do for cultural or racial reasons (your comment, to quote "am I second to your race as caucasian?")? How do you even know if I am Caucasian? I could be African, Asian, Hispanic or mixed. I won't tell, because I don't intend to make that an issue (race or national origin is a non-issue for me). I will tell you, however, that I have traveled, lived, studied (academically) and trained extensively both within and outside of the United States. I will go as far to say that the US is my adopted country, rather than that of birth.

If I look down on Karate or Tae Kwon Do, it is because they are unrealistic for street fighting, self-defense and such (anti-rape for women). No doubt there are some tough Karateka or Tae Kwon Do men. But we are talking about how the systems are practiced in general.

And, mind you, I trained Tae Kwon Do in Korea and studied Shotokan in Japan. I understand pretty thoroughly the limitations of both systems. They make great participatory and spectator sports, but they are not particularly useful for self-defense (armed or unarmed), because their training and techniques (as you pointed out) are unrealistic.

I was a pretty mal-adjusted youth once (before I cleaned up and took up studying) and I have gotten into an unfortunately high number of street fights. I, by no means, can speak of all self-defense or street fighting situations, but I have been through quite a few and can speak with some authority about what actually happens in a street encounter.

Also, having studied various striking, throwing, grappling and weapons-based systems of "self-defense," I also have a pretty good idea of what their usefulness and limitations are.

Indeed, as you pointed out, many sports-based (TKD, Karate, Kickboxing, Olympic Judo, etc.) and quasi-religious (Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan) systems teach an array of ineffective techniques (for a variety of reasons, many of them cultural and historical).

Others, however, teach extremely effective techniques in their contexts. For example, boxing and Muay Thai excel in striking techiques. Shui Chiao, Kodokan Judo and free-style wresting are excellent throwing systems (and more). Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Shoot wrestling and Sambo are great ground grappling arts. Systems like Shooto and Jeet Kune Do do a magnificent job of integrating several systems into effective fighting arts.

These are all very highly effective arts and I have witnessed their practitioners put their skills to quite deadly use in street encounters and no-holds barred fights (minimum rules).

Now, what makes some systems very effective and others not? I urge you to read my original post on this thread about "static" and "dynamic" training. Those systems that emphasize static training only (or heavily) tend to be ineffective (for the reasons I elaborated). Those that integrate dynamic training generally tend to be effective for the street (again, for the reasons I elaborated). A quick example is boxing (since you seem to think highly of boxing from your "farm boy with basic boxing can beat any martial artist comment). Boxers are excellent street punchers and it is NOT because of some secret, mystical reasons. It is because they engage in DYNAMIC training (meaning free-sparring). They quickly learn what works and what does not when one is exchanging heavy and painful blows to the head and the body (I know, I boxed for a bit when I was young).

Now, that effectiveness is in context of exchanging punches. Boxers become helpless if the "game" includes more than punching (kicking, elbowing, kneeing, headbutting, throwing, grappling). The idea, then, is to train in integrated systems (with dynamic training), which include weapons training, by the way. This is one of the reasons why NHB scene is increasingly and irrevocably dominated by MIXED martial arts systems that teach striking, throwing and grappling (all in DYNAMIC context).

BTW, before you imagine me to be some sort of "kick ass" wannabe, I will tell you my philosophy of street self-defense. It is called E-S-C-A-P-E. I learned long ago that to engage in any kind of violent activity (not sanctioned by law) is a lose-lose situation whether or not I "beat" the other fellow. I will only "fight" if cornered with no possibility of escape. Even then, I will seek for opportunities for escape rather than "to win."

In the same vein, I will tell you that even though I positively adore Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (or grappling part of Shooto), I will NEVER go to the ground unless I am forced there. Being on the ground limits my mobility and thus ability to escape. Why do I study grappling then? Because, experience and observation have taught me that, in many cases, being forced to the ground is not a choice, but a reality of fights sometimes. In such cases, grappling training (be it BJJ, Sambo, Judo, whatever) will enable me to competently defend myself, disable my opponent and, again, E-S-C-A-P-E!

Enough said (for now), I retire into my slumber...

Oh, one more thing. Since I am a military historian/analyst, I will tell you that Vietnam was never considered third-rate in "military tactics." It might have been considered to be a third-rate "military power," but the Vietnamese have always demonstrated an ingenuity and willingness to resist foreign interference in their affairs, whether from the Chinese, French, British, French again, American and Chinese again, while we Americans have never been considered the master of what the British termed "small wars" since our Revolutionary War. Just felt a need to clarify... (since this is within the realm of my "bread-winning" vocation).

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Skorzeny (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
In the same vein, I will tell you that even though I positively adore Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (or grappling part of Shooto), I will NEVER go to the ground unless I am forced there. Being on the ground limits my mobility and thus ability to escape. Why do I study grappling then? Because, experience and observation have taught me that, in many cases, being forced to the ground is not a choice, but a reality of fights sometimes. In such cases, grappling training (be it BJJ, Sambo, Judo, whatever) will enable me to competently defend myself, disable my opponent and, again, E-S-C-A-P-E!


Two things, I was watching a Discovery channel piece on the Army Rangers and this pompous instructor was bragging about how quick the Rangers had been to adopt BJJ into their hand to hand combat training. He then went on to demonstrate some groundfighting where he was trying to manipulate a student from the guard. The whole time I'm thinking "Who's going to be doing this sh*t in the middle of a war !!??". I don't know what this guy was thinking but the last thing a soldier is going to want to do in a chaotic situation is get a guy in an armbar or choke him out while on the ground.

At the very least in street fighting grappling helps you prevent going to the ground because you will be familiar with how one would initiate a takedown. No one likes sprawling on cement ;)
 
dang Skorzeny ... i edited my reply to Observer coz i didn't want to flame him too hard ... obviously you did it for me lol

seriously though ... love your credo ... i have the exact same one :) i prefer to disengage whenever possible coz in asia (as you probably well know) anyone you mess with has 20 friends around the corner, usually short, mean, vicious ... well i think you know.

actually i wasn't even going to reply to "vietnam as a third-rate military power" or whatever that was supposed to be ... *dien bien phu* says enough ... actually it takes about 2-15 reads of that last sentence to REALLY get what was meant by Observer, which is probably average ...

oya ... can anyone tell me what the *Mental Edge* is supposed to be?


[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
MTAA:

Actually, that statement from the Ranger HtH trainer has been taken out of context.

In other interviews and segments, he stated pretty clearly that the PRIMARY reason why the Rangers are trained in BJJ is to help develop a "warrior spirit." Now, I do not think that he was suggesting that other systems do not develop the warrior spirit. I believe that BJJ's close association with the UFC and other NHB fighting events has given it some (deserved) reputation as such.

If it were up to me to train the Rangers in HtH combat, I'd bump up pistol shooting, knife/bayonet fighting, improvised weapons training (mainly spades, shovels, picks and such) and some throwing and grappling (also incorporating rifles, pistols and bayonets as well as empty-hand). But, then again, this would look A LOT like Russian military Sambo.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Greetings:

I have only answered the following question of the poster:

...did you use the techniques that you trained in and did it come out the way you trained or were taught or did it evolve to a free for all or something in between?

I have elaborated that much and the topic touches other areas of interest.

Guys, "DON'T BE EASILY BOTHERED".

Thanks
 
In real life, in a real fight.... I know Gun-fu. :)

------------------
Fear the Government that fears your gun!!!


[This message has been edited by Badkarma187 (edited September 20, 2000).]
 
The Mental Edge is a sub-forum of mixedmartialarts.com. They guy that runs it is a great guy IMO. Check it out (and the rest of the site) for great info.

Skorzeny, your post is right on target, as usual.

Cheers,
Erik
 
Skorzeny,

In the piece that I saw, the instructor did mention UFC and the recent success of BJJ, why or why not that makes an impression on him (fighting spirit, jumping on the bandwagon) still baffles me as how he will apply that to HtH training for the Rangers. He said he condensed the art to some 10-15 basic moves (umm ok?). What bothered me was that he was bragging about the success of BJJ in the ring as if that alone was reason enough to incorporate it into training. Meantime other militaries have developed HtH training which are more involved with their surroundings (Krav Maga, Military Sambo)rather than one-on-one combat training.

Too bad the trainer who was so quick to jump on "The next best thing" didn't get to see BJJ and the Gracies lose once they stopped fighting in UFC and other self sponsored events.
 
krept:

Good to see you here as well. I believe the renowned Tony Blauer runs the Mental Edge on mixedmartialarts.com, does he not?

MTAA:

Certainly there is an element of hype in selecting BJJ for the Rangers. I acknowledge that. I also agree that other systems, such as military Sambo, would be much more appropriate for the Rangers than BJJ (right, try getting someone among the brass to adopt a "former Soviet" system).

On the other hand, some military forces around the world teach Tae Kwon Do, Karate or sports/Olympic Judo to their commandos, so BJJ isn't so bad in comparison.

Also, to be fair, we should admit that "the Gracies started losing" because the rest of the NHB/MMA crowd caught up with the Gracies in grappling/submission skills. Even the Japanese Shootwrestling was not practiced before the "advent" of the Gracies, the way it is practiced today.

Like it or not, the Gracies and BJJ have made a profound impact on the martial arts scene, even in Japan.

Lastly, I have observed that "combatives" are now becoming the flavor of the month. This is something Mark Tripp (certainly no friend of the BJJ) on mixedmartialarts.com observed as well.

Combatives are all very dandy, except one ought to always complement what is largely static training with some realistic dynamic training, lest one falls into the trap of invincibility from unrealistic training ("you-hit-me-and-stay-still-and-I-hit-you-ten-times!").

This is the strength of BJJ, as is the case with Kodokan Judo, Sambo, wrestling, etc.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
I just started reading this thread tonight. All I can say is this - Dragontooth, will you be my friend? Because I REALLY don't want you as an enemy!
 
um ... LiquidTension ... i'm not a Type A werewolf type maniac ... i'm actually very very friendly (i work in retail for the time being and i get props every day from strange people who tell management i should get a raise) ... it's just that people around me tend to get hurt a lot. i could wish i was skilled as some of the other TFLers in the martial arts and firearms expertise, but i'm not. i'll be the first to admit that. which is why i work on both my strengths and weaknesses so i can stop wishing.

some of the people here DO sound like fobs ... incoherent, to say the least, but for the most part this forum is full of very sensible, humble people of much wisdom and goodness in their lives. i give you all a salute / :)

ps - the friend of mine in singapore is doing fine. what really struck a dozen nerves with me is her getting hit in the face (she's a part-time model) ... oh well it's done and over with now.
 
I was more referring to the Triad connections than your attitude =) I realize that you're a good guy and didn't mean to imply that you weren't. That make more sense?
 
Just wanted to jump in on something that was stated early one in the thread. What style or affiliation of aikido is being discussed? I understand the most common form taught is pretty tame, but I have to say that after watching a friend of mine test for Shodan that was far from the truth. At one point in testing they had up to six uke going after him in randori. This was done freeform, no planned attacks. He did get tagged a couple of times though.(showed his back too much). I believe that all styles have thier own merit in a street confrontation, and we should embrace all.

------------------
"peace, love, joy, and happiness..."
 
To answer the original question, "What really happens in a real fight?", it varies from person to person, not only from a training point of view, but from genetics and experience.

For example, during my initial experiences in fighting, I got tunnel-vision--bad tunnel-vision. I have trained myself to the point where I don't tunnel as bad as I used to, but it's still very noticeable. And peripheal vision, although normally very good, only seems to pick up motion.

This can lead to embarrassing incidents, such as the one where I went through a house at high-speed looking for a critter, and missed his lady. She was curled up on the couch as small as she could make herself and was not moving. My peripheal vision apparently ignored her, even though she was in plain sight as I passed less than six feet away from her.

Other senses (smell, hearing, touch, time, etc.) will also start doing really wierd things.

During an intial contact, your training may seem to you to vanish. It's my experince that the training is there, you simply have so many other things on your mind that you don't realize you're using it.

Case in point: a young officer and I were got involved in a scuffle that went rodeo in a hurry. I saw the officer pull his sidearm and use it to bring the situation under control, he used a very nice fast draw to do it. When the critter proned out, the officer replaced the sidearm in his holster, using the palm of his hand to ensure the weapon was seated, and snapped the retaining strap -- exactly as he had trained. After the fight, he swore that he had never pulled his sidearm, and was rather upset about it. We had to show him the cruiser cam footage before he'd believe that he had actually drawn his weapon.

Most important, if your training completely deserts you at the beginning of the fracas, it will more than likely come back after the critter's first punch connects. And the training allows you to control the panic and gives you the confidence to control the situation.

LawDog
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top