What really happens in a real fight?

L

LASur5r

Moderator
Dragontooth recently replied in a thread that even though with his formal aikido training, a fight breaks down to using other than what and how you trained.
I have read some of your replies and some of you have been in some hairy incidences in your situations, did you use the techniques that you trained in and did it come out the way you trained or were taught or did it evolve to a free for all or something in between?

I had trained in old style jiujitsu, no mats, no gi's, and no tapouts; just ground to break your falls. So when I moved to soCal for highschool, I had a run in with a football player type who thought I was trying to steal his girlfriend. (Her father, a teacher in the high school that I was attending, asked me to teach her some self-defense because this guy was chasing away guys that wanted to date her, some by intimidation, some by beating them up and she did not even want to date this guy.)

Short story long, he confronted me in the P.E. locker room and he brought two of his buddies to make it a "fair fight." He tried to slam the locker on my hands, I asked him, "What his problem was?"
He told me to stay away from his girlfriend and he took three punches at me that I blocked and counter chopped into his carotid area, but our instructor had us "pull our hits because of the injury to your opponent if executed properly" so I"pulled my punch", then he did a lunging punch and I thought perfect for a shoulder throw (Seio-nage?) I grabbed his button down shirt and kiyaiied as I went into the throw... and completely ripped his shirt off his body.
Also the floor being partially wet (P.E. locker room), I slipped and did a shoulder roll on the floor to turn and face him with his shirt in my hand....Tah dah!
I acted like I knew what I was doing...they were so startled that they just walked off with a surprised look on their faces.

I didn't learn my lesson, though, I still stayed with schools that "pulled their punches" until I met Bruce Lee in '64, but that's another story.

So what happens...as you practiced? or something completely different?
 
George H.,
Did you study under Bruce Lee? That was one of his early philosophies. He figured that one of the weakest points/times that your opponent had was when he was attacking or actually just when he was beginning his attack because his mind is totally focussed on the attack, therefore your opponent't timing would be off should you attack him at that moment.
If you watch a lot of his old movies (duh) they're all old now, that's exactly what he demonstrates especially the scene in the alley where he was working in the Chinese restaurant in Italy.
Anyway...good on you, George H.
 
heck i'm not even 30 ... if my experiences are hairy compared to yours then i must be a cat spitting out furballs ...

seriously though ... my aikido training went to @#$% a lot of times ... mostly due to headlocks, etc etc ... found submission moves useful but more often than not it came down to slap, beat, choke. trouble makes a point of searching me out when i'm with my gf, kid sister, or someone else i need to protect or at least absorb hits for. which is to say the least VERY annoying ...

funny how that seoi-nage turned out ... quite surprised actually ... i do think George Hill is right ... nail 'em first and hard ... shoot i think i have to start picking up JKD (yes Skorzeny please stop laughing thank you)
 
Dragontooth 73,
I haven't contacted some of the old timers in JKD in quite a while and there's a lotof new guys that I haven't met, but if you want...give a holler where you might settle down at least on a temporary basis in L.A. and i think I can hook you up to some JKD guys in your area...they may be a little long in the tooth, gray in the hair, in some cases, they have almost no hair, but they are a bunch of battlers and some of them are more than willing to work with someone interested in learning.

I think Skorzeny can hook you up to a lot more people that are presently active more than I can.

If JKD is not your thing, then just ask because L.A. is a mecca for just about any kind of M.A. available.

Otherwise, some of my ex-con buddies recommend soap on a rope..or a soap bar strategically placed in a sock. Good luck and take care.

HI No Kah Oi!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LASur5r:
He figured that one of the weakest points/times that your opponent had was when he was attacking or actually just when he was beginning his attack because his mind is totally focussed on the attack, therefore your opponent't timing would be off should you attack him at that moment.
[/quote]

Back in college, I did a bit of fencing and used this technique quite effectively. I don't know exactly how I knew they were going to attack. That is, I wasn't conciously looking for some signal. But with some opponents, I just knew when they were going to attack. They must have been doing something (tensing their shoulders, who knows), that I just subconciously picked up on.

The best time to attack is when they're not ready to defend, which is just before they're about to start an attack.

M1911
 
thanks LASur5r ... never thought of soap ... usually i just put a whole bunch of coins in a sock and tie it up ... makes me have to get change all the time lol

seriously though ... i'll give JKD a try when i move. plenny mahalos :)

ps - yup hawai'i is da best :p

[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited September 14, 2000).]
 
Just an observation...

I have found that when many people are unexpectedly confronted with a violent situation freeze up due to all of the adrenaline, etc. going through the body. The more one is accustomed to this feeling, the mroe one is able to utilize it to his or her advantages.

I have found that I can almost predict attacks as well in untrained fighters. It's kind of like playing with a cat or dog... you know almost the split instant they are going to go from the static on balance position to a dynamic one, usually preceded by muscular tension and inhalation. The problem with watching for these "signs" in HTH is that they can be distracting and it is better as Lee/Mushasi/or Tzu said to watch the whole picture.

I have found that many times in violent encounters on-balance attacks are rare unless the person is trained. The problem I had with Aikido is that the irimi and tenkan (i think this is right) movements necessitated a firm base, which is desirable. Maybe the best way to describe it is how the aikidoka say "being centered." Frequently people lose their centered-ness with the adrenaline feeling, the "oh golly, I'm being hit" etc. and that is why it is extremely difficult to execute the techniques unless you are skilled enough to remain centered.

I have found that through groundfighting/grappling/jiujitsu (Brazilian) I learned how to be centered (or what a base is) easier. This applies very well to fighting, as when you can attain base on the ground, you can clear your head, calm down get the adrenaline feeling a little worked out and then procede much better than trying to do so on your feet. The situation is not so dynamic on the ground and you have better balance. For me, ironically, it was easier to learn how to be centered from ground grappling than standing techniques. IMO the ground is a very good place to start learning.

OK, I've caught myself rambling again (haha). My point: technique goes out the window initially due to nerves. If you can get in a position to calm down without being a target, you are much better off.

BTW, there are some AWESOME places to train in Hawaii.

Erik
 
true, but when you live on certain islands it gets kind of hard ... but anyways great point ... fortune cookie line ... *deer in headlights get whacked* i guess
 
No, I didn't study under Bruce.
I just been in a lot of fights... Read and agreed with Sun Tzu... and got from the US ARMY, a deep understanding of the application and results of a properly planned and executed ambush.

The deer in the headlights is a good analogy.
Also - the fact remains:
Action is faster than Reaction.
My point is this - as soon as you sense that its "GO TIME". Go.
Don't get into a mental debate "Ah, this is just a bluff - this guys doesnt want to throw down or fight..." If you do that - you have lost. Take comfort in the fact that if you feel threatened, you can defend yourself... Or if he (the Other Guy) has made a threat, you have just been assaulted and thus can defend yourself.
My favored combination in HTH if this:
A very rapid snap kick to the groin, followed by a PUNCH-DRAW move striking the nose. This worked for me when faced with a (Tongan) mugger that outsized/weighed me by 30% (seemed like 100%).
If it had gone to a ground fight - I'ld have lost. But my Action was faster than his Reaction and thus I won.

Tapping into your Adrenalin was mentioned... Thats only part of it... Easily tapped, but not enough to WIN a FIGHT. Every person has something inside them... I call it my Engine. Gabe Suarez formerly of the Halo Group, calls it his Dragon... Whatever you call it - its a side of you that society teaches us to bury - to deny. Its the Dark Side that remains our connection with our brutal evolutionary beginings... The Killer Instinct. THATS what you have to tap into.
Some folks cant control it, or open the tap and cant shut it. We call them Death Row inmates after they get caught... so you need to be able to open it right at "GO TIME" and then close it back off when the threat is over. That instinct is there... and its hard to go sparring and have a good work out that will let that tap open for training purposes... I'ld be afraid to try... But in a for real fight - That is the edge. Thats your weapon... weather you are armed or not.

"The application of violence has solved more problems in history..."

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited September 14, 2000).]
 
Well, first, the disclaimer: My encounter didn't involve a real threat--I was involved in a game of "Killer" on-campus in college.

I was studying karate 3-4 hours a week.

So when I returned to my dorm room one night with a sub sandwich in a bag in one hand, and my keys in the other, I see this stranger loitering in the hall near my door. I keep an eye on him as I approach my door--and sure enough, he pulls a water pistol out of his pocket.

So I stepped toward him, grabbed his hand so he couldn't point it at me and "shot" him with the toy pistol _I_ was carrying.

A friend who was with me saw it differently. I _lunged_ at the guy. My sandwich flew one way down the hall, the keys flew the other way, and I dropped into one of the karate stances I'd showed him, one foot cocked and ready to kick (and I do remember thinking, "I could kick him now, but it's just a game--so I won't").

So--yeah, it wasn't real. And in a real fight, the other guy would no doubt have been trying a lot harder too. But it _did_ show me that practicing defensive techniques over and over actually does drill them into you. I wasn't even aware that I'd _used_ my karate training until my friend pointed it out to me afterward.

Fortunately, I have no real "war stories" to tell.
 
First of all I just wanna disagree with George H on the action faster than reaction thing. If you have enough training to keep your head during a confrontation, reaction is faster. This is something my sensei drilled into us. When you're on the defensive, you can be relaxed and calm, all you have to do is wait and let your training take over. If you have to think about an attack, you are preoccupied and will likely fall victim to the same thing you are trying to accomplish - a first strike.

Now for my little story. Only time I've been in a fighting situation I was in a car with my gf. A guy came up to the window and started talking sh!t and then swung the baseball bat at the window, hitting it dead center and doing no damage. By this time I had backed up but he got off a second swing that hit the car and the window at the same time, shattering the glass. I now know from experience that I don't freeze in these situations. I became absolutely furious. I stopped the car and aimed it at him to run him down, but my gf's screaming stopped me and we just sped away to the nearest police station. As we were leaving 2 other carloads of ppl pulled up to where we had been and picked up my attacker, so it would probably have been bad for me to run him down. Naturally by the time the police got there they were all gone and they never found them, even with the vivid description of the guy and the vehicles. They wrote up the report as vandalism instead of assault. I learned 3 things from this - 1) a driver's side window costs $150 and is not covered by insurance. 2) The police will do whatever possible to decrease paperwork (I was young and didn't know the nature of police yet). 3) Most important - I get pissed off beyond belief (and almost control) when confronted. I have lost my train of thought now, so I'll shut up.
 
Okay - true - please amend my post - 99 times out of 100... Action is faster than Reaction. Stupid Assalant VS Trained Martial Artist. :rolleyes:

No Kidding.

[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited September 14, 2000).]
 
George, I agree with you - action is faster than reaction. Average reaction time is about 3/10 second. A good, confident/competent striker can beat that once they get in range.

Most people, however, telegraph their intentions - that's what we have time to react to.
 
Whatever you do, don't wear a tie or dangling earrings (depending upon your gender).

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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
Homer Simpson... but attributed to Algore.
 
When you rely on your adrenaline and "The killer instinct" you wear yourself out unnecesarily and put yourself at risk. The only way to combat this is to spar without pulling punches and or competing. Then when you get into a fight you don't fall back on "fight or flight" syndrome. As far as the action vs. reaction comment...who stands their expecting to get hit ? The loser does. I never think about what my opponent is going to do to me, defense should be second nature, I always size up his posture/weaknesses and execute my attack.
If you get hit, you get hit, big deal, that shouldn't stop you.

LASur5r, you train at the Inosanto academy ? I train at Gyms in North Hollywood and spar with some of the Jet Center guys. I've been considering Krav Maga, it seems to suit all the questions you have been raising in posts lately.

Anyone in L.A. go to the Coban vs. Danny Steele fight ?
 
MTAA, I'd also add that adrenaline gives you a wicked case of target fixation/tunnel vision. You won't see his buddy who walks up on you, even if he's in your peripheral vision...

The problem with waiting (reaction) on your opponent is that you give him the opportunity to plan his attack, or do something totally unexpected (lots of untrained people will do something you can't expect, especially since they don't even know what they're going to do). And, what if he is faster than you? Getting whacked/taken down right off the bat is not a good idea. If a fight has become inevitable, seize the initiative & force them to try to beat your best game, not the other way around. Offense as well as defense should be instinctive - they're just parts of the whole.

As far as the "if you get hit" bit, I totally agree. Good defensive/counterattacking skills are a must, unless you have Tex Cobb's ability to suck up damage & keep going - and have plenty of money for the doctor bills from taking such a beating...
 
Hi, everyone!

As usualy, I have some opinionated comments:

I disagree with the generalization that "martial arts training goes out the window in real fights."

That depends entirely on what that martial arts training was. The reason that Aikido, for example, is relatively useless in a real fight is that it is trained STATICALLY against a compliant partner. Meaning, one practices by having a partner "attack" at moderate speeds in a predictable pre-arranged fashion and then "counter" with a technique. This kind of training does not prepare the practitioner for what actually occurs in a fight (during which the opponent will move unexpectedly, unpredictably and with varying intensity).

However, this kind of training IS necessary to 1) muscle-memorize the technique (which takes 1,000+ repetitions over time) so that the technique becomes reflexive (even if "surprised") and 2) to develop physical attributes (power, speed, blah, blah, blah...).

Yet, there MUST be more for serious street fighting or self-defense. There must be DYNAMIC training where the the practitioner and the partner spar freely (relatively speaking) so that each cannot predict the movement of the other or the intensity with which each responds to an attack or a counter. Judo calls this Randori. Boxing calls it free-sparring. This is absolutely ESSENTIAL if one wishes to actually be able to apply techniques (be it a seoi-nage or a jab-cross combination).

At the same time, dynamic training will demonstrate to one about whether certain techniques work or not in "real" situations. One can certainly practice Kotegaeshi (wrist-bending) one million times and, indeed, in a rare occurrence when a thug attacks one with a reverse punch at 75% speed, one might be able to perform it successfully. But, chances are, a little dynamic training will quickly demonstrate to any Aikidoka that such a technique is NOT likely to work when a thug comes at him with a full intention to pound his face into the pavement (rather that with an intention to reverse punch him at 75% speed).

Now, dynamic training means that you cannot practice certain things (like eye-gouging or other "deadly" moves). I suppose one could train in such a fashion, but I suspect this will be difficult as one will either run out of training partners or insurance coverage from frequent stays at the hospital. Note that there are some ways to train these techniques dynamically, but it involves high degree of proficiency and is not something a garden variety martial arts students should try.

Having things such as mats, pads, gloves and, yes, tapouts allows people to practice these dynamic techniques without seriously injuring each other and to push the envelope on what is allowed during such training.

Lastly, regarding "adrenaline rush." Anyone who has been in any kind of combat sports competition knows that adrenaline is an enemy, not an ally. Adrenaline gives a burst of certain strength increase as well as some "moral" impact on untrained or inexperienced opponents. Unfortunately, a so-called adrenaline rush tends to rapidly consume oxygen and energy in a couple of minutes, rendering a person incapable of sustained fighting or physical activity.

Scientific researches demonstrate that a tense body burns oxygen (therefore energy) three to four times (!) faster than a relaxed body. Furthermore, a tense body creates jerky, imprecise body movements in which render any kind of fine motor activity ineffective and even impossible.

The best thing to do is to train oneself to be relaxed so that one can move, attack, defend in a clear frame of mind, with minimal consumption of energy and effort. Hence, Kano Jigoro's Judo maxim "minimum effort, maximum effect." A big part of this is training in proper breathing methods. Breathing is the ONLY way one can actually control the involuntary muscles of the body (like the heart) without the use of things like drugs.

BTW, this is where the Asian concept of "mushin" (or empty-mind) comes from. Without anger, distraction or adrenaline rush, one can "see clearly" and "think clearly" and can, therefore, act as one has trained.

Sorry about the long post, folks.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
What real fight?

1. Barehand fighting
2. Blade fighting
3. Gun fighting

With the 3 mentioned above, I only experienced 1 and 2 items, but I had several close encounters in gun fighting.

In an unarmed combat, the training we had are just a Calisthenics. In true fighting, its fine if you have executed 3 good different kicks because the opponent movements will distract you also. So, your tendency is to storm him with an unexpected style or kinds of punches and kicks that might not be described in any martial arts book. In real fight there is always a graple after a few seconds of kicking and punching. And in grabbing each other you are going to bite, lock, elbow jobbing, knee kick, or throwing your opponent using Judo and other forms of throwing martial arts be it oriental or Western way of throwing techniques.

Any body who go into actual fight without using bladed weapon or pistol, expect that if you cannot knockdown your opponent in few seconds, you are both injured by any means and your Black belt in Karate, Judo, Jujitso or any style cannot protect you of being scratch or seriously injured. The training in martial arts will only prepare you to be more abled bodied fighter but not a guarranty that you are formidable. For sure you cannot use much of what you've learned in martial arts maybe just a few techniques.

In my being so active in martial arts at my early age, now that I am near to my 50's - I could say that the real martial arts is to develop something of our own movements out from the many martial arts we've learned to be more effective. To follow what is being taught sometimes in any martial arts school is not being used in actual fight. A farm boy can beat a black belter of any martial arts if the farm boy has a strong body and knows the basic of boxing and basic blockings.

Many martial arts instructors I've seen are only good in the Club but not in actual fight. Of course, a boxer trainer does not mean he can beat his trainee. It has been proven many many times. Thus martial arts is a sport and can be used also as a tool in a fight if the player has determination to fight.

In real fight, a determined attacker using bladed weapon against a blackbelt, for sure the black belt will be stabbed if he is not determined to fight. Thus determination is always necessary when going into a fight during self defense.

I wrote like this because in real fight, you are not going to use the karate blocks the same as executed inside the Dojo but those basic blocks and basic kicks we have studied will just trained us to fight when needed but it will not be exactly executed or used when we are already in na actual fight or brawl.
I look fighting that, when two are in the verge of exchanging blows and kicks they will utilize all what they can that is out of what they have learned in their respective clubs. I like martial arts only as the WAY of expressing a certain philosophy of good and coordinated flow of movements of the body. But they are not a guarranty to be a good fighter.
 
um Skorzeny ... when i said my aikido training usually went out the window to the birds, it was meant as an entirely subjective statement. i know a number of martial artists who can dominate a situation at will (including one uncle who retired from the cia) ... i make no bones about it: i am NOT one of those people. my uncle (who now has a dojo in the canary islands, far far away from any warzone) continually set an object lesson for the use of physical force with extreme prejudice which i did NOT want to emulate as a child.

i didn't take up a *static* martial art because i wanted to *kick butt* ... i took it up for other reasons: spiritual calm, discipline, and most of all, QUIET. if i wanted to become a fighter i would have gone to shooto, a choice that would have been very easy in tokyo. as it stands, i have the highest respect for all the martial artists here in TFL, and elsewhere who choose to pursue *realistic* fighting styles. i'm just saying that for me, i KNOW i didn't train in a dynamic environment. but i chose that then. just as i'll make different choices now.

anyways, i must goto work ... everyone have a good day :)
 
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