What performance could load the 30-06 up to?

Bart, I thought that's what you meant... I thought I remember reading somewhere that the 67 cases sucked and they issued '66 cases after 67... or something along those lines?


Anyhow, they've got to be getting a little scarce these days, or certainly will eventually, I should think. Pushing 50 years ago now.
 
"Paul, you state that when a cartridge is NOT loaded to it's full potential, then proper pressure standards to allow reloaders to use that potential should be made available. Exactly, what's the routine for determining a cartridge's full potential? That's a descriptor I've not heard of."

I'll try. I'll use the 7x57 as my main example. Because there are so many weak(?) 1893 and 1895 Mausers chambered to the 7x57, SAAMI pressure has been limited to 45,000 C.U.P./50,000 P.S.I. Factory ammo and most load data is kept to those pressure levels. But what is the true pressure level for that cartridge? Take a Winchester M70 or Remington M700 rated as high as 65,000 P.S.I and shoot a 7x57 cartridge loaded to that pressure level. That's the true potential of that cartridge. Not 45,000 C.U.P/50,000 P.S.I.
It's kind of like putting a 2 barrel carb on a 460 Cobra.


"You also state Remington admits their .280 Rem's downloaded for pump and semi-auto rifles. Yet it's got the same peak pressure as the .30-06; 60,000 psi according to industry specs. Their data says the 150-gr Core Lokt leaves at 2890 fps, SAAMI's spec is 2975 fps for 150's and your rifle put that bullet out at 2800 fps. Have you verified that all three barrels have the same chamber, bore and groove dimensions to level that playing field and are fired in the same conditions? If not, then it's normal to see that much difference for a given load across them. It's easy to measure yours and see if it's the same as SAAMI specs for an industry standard pressure/velocity test barrel."

I believe you missed my point on that. I don't know what barrel length Remington use but I'd be willing to bet it might be 26" Note too that the 30-06 is now loaded in strong modernrifles, not low numbered Springfields. That does make a difference in what that cartridge can do.

John Barsness' barrel and mine were 24" each and we came to within 5 FPS of each other. Dunno what hit temperature was but it was about 73 degrees the day I ran my load work up. I do think an increase of 210 FPS over a factory load with nicely rounded primers, case head and case rim expansion not different from factory loads, although I was using nickeled Winchester brass vs the brass Remington cases. FWIW, the Nosler manual shows 2990 FPS from a 26" barrel. They state a 100% loading.

I guess maybe the best way to put it is it's not what SAAMI says a certain cartridge is allowed to do by dictat, but what it really can do while staying within the bounds of safety.
Paul B.
 
Paul, instead of assuming Remington might use a 26" barrel, why not ask them?
I think the use a SAAMI spec velocity and pressure test barrel. They typically have smaller groove diameters than production barrels.

What's your .30-06 barrel's groove diameter? If it's bigger than .3081", I'd bet money it would shoot Remington's ammo used to get their data with slower than what they got.

What's the upper safety boundary for SAAMI pressure specs for the .30-06?
 
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Since Bart mention John Barsness this is article he wrote for 24hr about 30-06.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/May_2009.html

Sept 09 got my 30-06 back from gunsmith had Kreiger barrel replaced with Bartlein and I shot few loads that John mention.

The 165gr load he mention using IMR-4350 58.5gr, my 30-06 58gr/IMR-4350 with 165gr AB @ 2962fps.

I filled my cow elk tag last year with another 30-06 used 150gr E-Tip. Bartlein barrel using 180gr Partition with H-4350 @ 2863fps.
 
mehavey,the upper safety boundary for SAAMI pressure specs for the .30-06 is what's called "maximum probable sample mean pressure;" that's 63,800 psi (53,200 cup). It's the upper limit for the spread of pressures based on the maximum average pressure of 60,000 psi (50,000 cup). If the max avg. pressure is higher than 60,000 psi, the maximum average pressure will be higher than 63,800 psi.

A Remington factory rep told me years ago that they, along with Du Pont's powder people, used SAAMI spec pressure and velocity test barrels developing loads. They chose to use SAAMI pressure limits, as did other companies, to allow for incidents where the peak pressure for a given load was much higher than normal variables produce. Barrel obstruction, extra super hot ammo from laying in the sun too long atop a shooting bench, sloppy powder measuring by inept reloaders, oversize bullets in undersize bores, and all those things that easily drive up peak pressures. It's a safety margin which, in his opinion, was a smart thing for commercial companies to do.

He was also a victim of ineptness, however, and he's still got the scars on his face to prove it. He'd taken the Winchester 70 match rifle he used to win the 1964 Nationals out to try some new Winchester ball powder. Fired the first round and it blew case brass particles back into his face from the blown out part of the unsupported case head in the chamber. After driving back into town for medical help, he went home to recouperate. Then next morning checking his loads, he realized that he had loaded the Winchester wrong powder in his ammo. 'Twas a fast powder for small cases instead of a slow one for his .308. He felt bad mostly because that National's winning rifle and its stock was ruined.
 
I'll try. I'll use the 7x57 as my main example. Because there are so many weak(?) 1893 and 1895 Mausers chambered to the 7x57, SAAMI pressure has been limited to 45,000 C.U.P./50,000 P.S.I. Factory ammo and most load data is kept to those pressure levels. But what is the true pressure level for that cartridge? Take a Winchester M70 or Remington M700 rated as high as 65,000 P.S.I and shoot a 7x57 cartridge loaded to that pressure level. That's the true potential of that cartridge. Not 45,000 C.U.P/50,000 P.S.I.

It's kind of like putting a 2 barrel carb on a 460 Cobra.

Yes, and you can understand why if you think of liability laws and gunwriters. Gunwriters are pitchmen for the industry and every time a new batch of antique Mausers come in, they print copy extolling the virtues of the things. Terms like “Old World Craftsmanship”, and “German” or “Swedish” steels pop up in the articles, basically meaningless, but effective in creating the impression that these old rifles are somehow super strong. They aren’t. Those WW1 era and earlier rifles are made of low grade steels that were full of slag and inclusions. Additionally they were not designed or built for high pressure rounds.

I have not found an explicit statement to the design loads that Paul Mauser used. SAAMI and CIP standards were established well after his death. However there is information about the proof pressures used in M98 actions.


Rifle Magazine Issue 159 May 1995 Dear Editor pg 10http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri159partial.pdf

Ludwig Olsen :

Mauser 98 actions produced by Mauser and DWM were proofed with two loads that produced approximately 1000 atmosphere greater pressure than normal factory rounds. That procedure was in accordance with the 1891 German proof law. Proof pressure for the Mauser 98 in 7 X57 was 4,050 atmospheres (57, 591 psi). Pressure of the normal 7 X 57 factory load with 11.2 gram bullet was given in Mauser’s 1908 patent boot as 3,050 atmosphere, or 43, 371 pounds.

While many Mausers in the 1908 Brazilian category will likely endure pressures considerably in excess of the 4,050 atmospheres proof loads, there might be some setback of the receiver locking shoulder with such high pressures


Kunhausen shows similar numbers in his book : “The Mauser Bolt Actions, A Shop Manual”

Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 Dieter

Page 103. M98 Mauser service rifles underwent a 2 round proof at 4,000 atm gas pressure, 1 atm = 14.6 psi, 4000 atm = 58, 784 psia.

Incidentally, the lugs broke on 1:1000 rifles used by the Bavarian Army Corp!

Given that the general public is under the impression that these old antiques are “uber” strong, they will not be in the forgiving mood if one blows up with factory ammunition. Ammunition companies will be under great potential financial liability if their ammunition is in one of these blowups, so they must download these historical cartridges to the lowest common denominator.

However, if you have a modern action, (post WW2) made of modern materials and are using modern cases, and know what you are doing, I don’t see any reason why you can’t develop higher performance loads in the 7mm Mauser. You will be doing it by your seat of the pants since you don’t have pressure gages, but, as long as you don’t have sticky extraction, blown primers, expanded case heads, and your velocities are reasonable when compared to cartridges like the 7mm-08, (not the 7mm Rem Mag!) you should be perfectly fine.
 
Strongest action I can think of is the Ruger no1 falling block. I assume that's why it's so desirable in 45-70; because you can load it to pressures beyond what any other 45-70 can handle.

Back to the OP, I think you are looking at this backwards. Why try to load a cartridge to unsafe levels when you could just get another gun (chambered in another caliber) more suited to do what you need it to? The 300WM or 300RUM can pretty easily be loaded down to 30-06 power levels (although with slow burning powders in those huge cases I would begin to worry about SEE). So it would be like shooting a 30-06, then if you wanted to bruise your shoulder you could throw 100 grains of powder behind the same bullet and have some fun.
 
First things first, thanks to everyone for your replies. I know it can be difficult answering questions when the person asking doesn't recognize all of the factors involved in the answer.

Next:
Back to the OP, I think you are looking at this backwards. Why try to load a cartridge to unsafe levels when you could just get another gun (chambered in another caliber) more suited to do what you need it to? The 300WM or 300RUM can pretty easily be loaded down to 30-06 power levels (although with slow burning powders in those huge cases I would begin to worry about SEE). So it would be like shooting a 30-06, then if you wanted to bruise your shoulder you could throw 100 grains of powder behind the same bullet and have some fun.

I never was looking to load any cartridge to unsafe levels. I wanted to know where the 30-06 reached its safe working absolute maximum.

Even though the 300 can be downloaded to '06 levels, I don't have one of those. So I work with what I've got.
 
OK, work with what you've got. But I suggest you get a good strain gauge pressure system to accurately see where you're going.
 
I have been reading "full potential" articles in the gunzines for some decades now, but with no interest in jumping down that particular rabbit hole.
The difference now is that we have chronographs and Quickload and Pressure Trace but mostly the Internet where everybody can sound like an expert. Which I am not, but I do have some thoughts and recollections.

The key question seems to me, when loading a cartridge in excess of published maximum data, how do you know when you have reached "full potential?"
You can compute it, mehavey printed a chart of .30-06 at .270 pressure.
You can measure it, the Pressure Trace strain gauge system is $499; $757 if you need a chronograph, too.
You can estimate it. Ken Waters is the guru of casehead expansion. In .30-06 he called a load developing .001" more casehead expansion than a particular factory load MAXIMUM. He only listed one such as a Pet Load and it was one grain over Lyman. Most of what he thought to be good serviceable loads were a grain or more under Lyman's maximum.
Or you can look at the crystal ball of whatever other "pressure signs" you like. Rocky Gibbs said that the maximum load for one of his maximally improved cartridges was the load that could be fired ten times with the primer pocket remaining adequately tight. But he also recommended particular brass. He had a list of headstamps, mostly military and military match, that he had found to be the strongest. Would that apply to a standard case shape or would you get other "pressure signs" first? I don't know.

Once upon a time, the 1909 Mauser was a popular action for custom rifles. It was well made and even had a hinged floorplate like a Mauser sporter.
It was common to barrel them in .280 Rem, that got you a stylish 7mm bullet on a bigger case than 7mm Mauser, without the trouble of gunsmithing to adapt bolt face and magazine to 7mm Rem Magnum.
But there was still the demand for Magnum Power, so the .280 was considerably souped up. To get to its "full potential" there were handloaders necking up and reforming Winchester .270 brass to .280 because Winchester brass was thought to be harder and stronger than Remington.
It was commonly said that this setup would "equal 7mm Magnum" with bullet weights up to 150 grains. Put that in your Quickload and smoke it.

But then there is the .257 Roberts...
 
I ran my savage 110 .30-06 through most of what is talked about here. It all boiled down to what load works in your rifle. I set my standards at 0.6 MOA average group size. I found that in multiple bullet weights with two different powders. I pushed past those charges looking for another node at a higher velocity than max. I ran into "sticky bolt" and stretched brass before I found any additional nodes.

My results were very, very much like the posts on the first page. My results:
To go faster and flatter, buy another rifle with an AccuTrigger/AccuStock in 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag/RUM, or step up to .338 Lapua/.50 BMG/.416.

Pretty much sums up about two years work at my reloading bench. I did have .308 WIN and 7mm Rem Mag rifles to shoot and compare side by side.
 
One test = beaucoup expert opinions.

Ha ha ha. Truth. Art speaks very wisely.


Don't forget - the Hornady "Superformance" ammo, which is evidently NOT just ammo loaded with their over-the-counter "Superformance"-branded reloading powder, shows some pretty impressive stats, considering that these must of necessity be dumbed down some for the inevitable nitwit who fails to follow recommendations and shoots them from a pump or semi rather than a turnbolt:

150s @ 3,080 fps
165s @ 2,960 fps
180s @ 2,630 fps

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-06-SPRG

So, in sum, the .30-'06 can be loaded "to full-power .30-'06 levels"! (to be a smart-arse if I may), which is quite impressive. 180s @ 2,630 is all the recoil I care to have and then some in a rifle that I need to be practicing with --- except for a real need for something bigger like an Africa trip. .300 "maggies" are for the birds, IMO.

and yes, there's always .30-'06 AI, but then you sacrifice a smidgeon of feed reliability, possibly, depending on rifle.
 
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Dremel, Winchester and Western Cartridge Company loaded their 180-gr. match bullets into .30-06 cases back in the '50's and '60's. They left Winchester 70 factory match rifles at 2600 to 2700 fps depending on the barrels bore and groove diameters. What helped was the bullets were seated out about 1/10th longer than normal and the boxes were labeled "For Single Round Loading Only" as they were too long to fit in the rifle's box magaxines. But they shot very well at long range. Peak pressure was 50,000 cup; right at SAAMI spec.
 
Interesting. No gains in 60 years. :) Well there's nothing new under the sun, I guess. I wonder how the superformance ones would do if Hornady knew they could guarantee that they'd be shot in turnbolts only (which they can't, but.....). Probably a lot better though - i.e. real benefit from technology would be my guess, with same pressure.
 
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Want power?
Do you routinely load heavy bullets? Talking 180gr min, more like 200-220gr?

Time to consider an Ackley Improved chambering...
Really get the benefit of the AI'd chamber if you shoot heavies.

Looking at .30-338 power in a 5 stack magazine.

Want performance? Look at the High BC vld heavy bullets.

Not much need for a .30 magnum.


If you want more power, the .338 bore has the bullet options.


Hard to beat a .30-06 AI especially if you cast. Talking real versatility.
If a 220gr rn or 200gr cast boolit won't do the job from an `06AI the logical step is UP to .338 or larger.
 
Hard to beat a .30-06 AI especially if you cast. Talking real versatility.
If a 220gr rn or 200gr cast boolit won't do the job from an `06AI the logical step is UP to .338 or larger.

Can't argue with that. In fact, since .30 cal BCs have caught up to .338s for the most part, if .30-'06 or .30-'06 AI can't do it, time to step up to *at least* .35 Whelen or 9.3x62mm, IMO. Though if a .30 maggie butters your corn muffins, then by all means, go for it.
 
I wouldn't consider the .35 whelen a step up from .338 personally. While the diameter is slightly larger, bullets are basically the same weight. If you compared .35 whelen to .338-06 you gain almost nothing and in some cases lose performance with the .35 cal. IMO the next logical step up would be at least .375 H&H or .375 ruger, but even then you're not gaining much over .338 Lapua, unless you're planning to stop a charging animal, in which case you would want more bullet diameter and weight anyway.

You can't really get much better than the 06' family unless you're planning some really long range shots, but even the 6.5-06 and .270 are nothing to turn your nose up at, for long range. You can plausibly carry out 1000ft/lbs of energy to 800 yards and beyond with the right loads.
 
Well, point taken, but every bit of bullet diameter and weight helps in real world performance / penetration...that's why the 9.3x62 is considered the minimum for dangerous game in several African countries, not the .338 Lapua. Proven performer. And it's in essence a .30-'06 case with a .366 bullet.

Heaviest (typical) weights for bullets:

.338 - 300 gr
.358 - 310 gr
.366 - 320 gr

So what you say is pretty much true, looks like.
 
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