You're picking as an example a person who was famous at least in part for hot rodding cartridges. Kind of obvious where he'd stand on the issue.
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What might be the next innovation in handguns?
- Thread starter OhioGuy
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Cheapshooter
New member
But the pertinent part is his belief that you can learn to handle the recoil. And that it is mostly mental!
But as with so many things today, people are looking for the easy way out.
I disagree that people wanting less recoil is a "new" thing. There have been and will always be the Elmer Keiths of the world. That doesn't make them the norm. There are still people shooting magnums to this day. I'm not sure the percentage of the population has changed that dramatically, especially when you factor in the recent growth of 10mm.
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Cheapshooter, that was a cheapshot. I owned and shot 44 Magnums for years. Mostly old 3-screw, Flat-top Ruger Blackhawks. Even owned a Model 29 for a brief while back then. Now I have severe arthritis in my shoulders, elbows, wrists, and hands. According to you, I was "looking for the easy way out" when I sold them and quit shooting full house 357 Magnums as well.
Guess you're more of a man than I am.
Dave...looking for the easy way out.
Cheapshooter
New member
Dave T you are not who I am talking about. There are reasons of course for needing a firearm with less recoil. But it seems in recent years it's becoming a must for newer shooters to have the lowest recoiling gun, but with magnum power. But they would be perfectly capable of shooting a harder kickng gun if they spent some time learning how to handle recoil, and getting over the mental block about.
Your initial argument is off. The fact of the matter is people DID care about recoil. Hence the FBI offering the 38 special load even after the 357 revolver was introduced AND the bureau had switched to 357 revolvers as normal. While folks like Elmer Keith have been able to get impressive results the move towards heavier recoil has been resisted by all but the most committed shooters. Hence why many law enforcement agencies, whose agents carry firearms as part of the job rather than as being "gun nuts", didn't even commit to switching out of 38 special to 357 magnum even when they had firearms capable of it. I'm sure we have all heard stories of the 44 Magnum for sale with 44 rounds of ammunition left in the box. A good share of our fathers and grandfathers (or for some of you your own generation), who were by no means part of the current generational sensitivity shift you seem concerned about, simply were not interested in having a firearm that was problematic to shoot without excessive practice. The .41 Magnum designed as the middle ground between the .357 and 44 never did have the sales those behind it hoped for.
At one time in rifles the big game cartridges that we generally consider "classic" (like the .416 Rigby) were replacing heavier recoiling black powder firearms and recoil reduction was a big selling point of these big bores.
Now we have members of this board who advocate for lighter recoiling guns specifically due to follow-up shots that have nothing to do with their ability to handle recoil. Three shots of 9MM are ballistic ally superior to two shots of .40 and can be delivered in the same amount of time with controlled fire I believe is a reasonable synopsis of the argument. This may be a relatively new argument, at least in regards to the amount of support it has, but it is not based on some recoil sensitivity thing it is based on a tactical assessment. Please note this is not my argument and I am not going to advance if the argument is right or wrong itself only that it is a reasonable argument put forward in favor of the 9MM cartridge in guns of size and weight similar to harder recoiling cartridges.
Now technology has helped us get more powerful handguns, at an "affordable" price, with less perceived recoil. I think there is a reason Smith and Wesson ships the .460 and 500 with compensators on them and I doubt they would have pushed these to market had this alleged recoil sensitivity thing (the 500 was introduced in 2003) really been a sign of the times.
The move to ultra-light, ultra small, "pocket" 9MMs which have substantial perceived recoil due to size and weight further indicates that there is not some new recoil sensitivity. If anything modern firearm manufacturers and buyers seem accepting of recoil if it allows them to get 9MM cartridges into guns of a size that just a couple decades ago would have been chambered in 32. Surely those who have bought polymer pocket 9MMs realize they recoil more than the steel pocket .32s of yesterday. Especially those who have owned both. Yet one of these things is manufactured in something new every year and one is not.
IF this were possible why not? I would love a gun with the sheer stopping power of a .500 that was the size, weight, and capacity of a .22 and had the same recoil. I mean why would this be a bad thing? I believe you are incorrectly attributing motivation though.
I think if one is going to be derisive they should at least have the premises lined up and fact checked enough that they are right. Its very easy to be derisive if accuracy is not required. There are, in fact, things one can even by correctly derisive about. I simply do not believe that recoil concerns being a recent phenomena is one of them.
This theory that recoil sensitivity is new disregards the fact that people like Keith were pushing the envelope and not everyone joined in on the results specifically because of the recoil. This is not "we want less recoil" winning the day it is "here is a gun with better ballistics BUT more recoil" NOT winning the day for the non-committed shooter. You seem to be trying to reverse this in your narrative which allows you to place blame on current trends and I believe it is simply incorrect in regards to what happened.
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Forget the Moon, we can't even reach low Earth orbit any longer in a manned vehicle, since we abandoned the Shuttle. We have to buy rides with the Russians to get to the International Space Station. Pathetic.
m&p45acp10+1
New member
Lighter guns that have improved sights,red dots, with slides that are easy to rack, and cut slides, and ported barrels. That would be a nice thing to see in a standard gun that does have a 4 figure price tag.
That said. The FN509 Tactical I have is an awesome gun. I added a Vortex red dot, and a compensator. The flush fit 17 round magazine when loaded does not make the gun feel like a boat anchor. The 24 round mags do not make it feel too heavy when it is fully loaded.
The thing I like about it being a lefty is that it is 100% ambidextrous with no tools or work having to be done. The mag release works from both sides. The slide lock can be worked from either side of the gun.
That said. The FN509 Tactical I have is an awesome gun. I added a Vortex red dot, and a compensator. The flush fit 17 round magazine when loaded does not make the gun feel like a boat anchor. The 24 round mags do not make it feel too heavy when it is fully loaded.
The thing I like about it being a lefty is that it is 100% ambidextrous with no tools or work having to be done. The mag release works from both sides. The slide lock can be worked from either side of the gun.
Cheapshooter
New member
Guess I, along with most of my shooting buddies are just out of touch, or anomalies. We do shoot a lot of lower recoil guns like rimfires, and 38 Spcl. target loads, standard pressure 9MM out of full size service pistols, and others. But we also like shooting the thumpers, and big boomers just as much. Several of us hunt with TC Contender pistols in calibers like 7-30 Watters, 357 Harrett, 35 Remington, and 45-70. Nothing puts a grin on my face like a couple dozen or so rounds of 45-70 through a 10" 'Tender!
So you have a number of people that share your interest in more powerful cartridges. What's your point again? That people's interest or tolerance for those cartridges are waning? Yet you and your friends exist how? Some sort of Omega men of the larger calibers? Okay then. And even if other people felt differently, why would you then care? Sounds like you and your friends are having a good time. Isn't that enough?
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Out of touch with what exactly? I'm not sure you have offered evidence that recoil sensitivity is even on the rise let alone what is causing it. I know some people now who consider the 30-06 as the bare minimum for white-tail and scoff at the concept of hunting them with quarter bores. Imagine if I told them that my next gun will be a .257 Roberts and I would not question hunting Elk with it. The 454 Cassul, once revered as ridiculously over-powered, has been left behind by new offerings from multiple companies. Notice the .50s that are showing up more and more at public ranges? Yes they have recoil management systems but they are .50s. More and more shooters are showing up into Elk camps with African cartridges that make the 45-70 seem tame in comparison. Either the game is getting a lot tougher to take down or people are becoming less adverse to recoil. I think you offered false premise in increasing recoil sensitivity with a false attribution to softness.
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Catchabullet
New member
Fn 5.7 has a polymer slide. Maybe just barrels then.
If I have a choice of getting a shot ion the behind, or taking a pill, I'll "Take the easy way out" and swallow the pill every time.
I own several hard kicking weapons for specific purposes, but they are definitely NOT what I take out for fun.
I shoot a 10MM G-20 almost as well as a G-17, 9mm. But I most certainly do not enjoy shooting full house 10MM loads.
Any human that does not opt for comfort over pain is disturbed. I believe there is a term for those who enjoy pain. Masochist.
And I truly believe that old Elmer had much better sights on his typewriter than on any of his guns.
I own several hard kicking weapons for specific purposes, but they are definitely NOT what I take out for fun.
I shoot a 10MM G-20 almost as well as a G-17, 9mm. But I most certainly do not enjoy shooting full house 10MM loads.
Any human that does not opt for comfort over pain is disturbed. I believe there is a term for those who enjoy pain. Masochist.
And I truly believe that old Elmer had much better sights on his typewriter than on any of his guns.
5.7 has a steel slide with a polymer cover
Catchabullet
New member
You're correct, I admit I was wrong. The firearm is so light I misjudged the materials.
What is the next innovation? Remember the low bore axis of the Rhino revolver? This but in a semi-auto. No idea how they are going to accomplish it but the intent will be to alleviate muzzle rise as much as possible to allow faster follow up shots. That's the hard part about predicting innovation. It has to be far enough out there to be innovative while not being impossible. Trends of existing mainstream ideas are not innovation.
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Cheapshooter
New member
There was a thread about such a pistol a while back. Don't remember the name. Mostly because I was unimpressed to the point of forgetting about it. The things I do remember is that like the Rhino it was absolutely UGH-LEE!!! In addition it was even more ridiculously expensive.