What makes a sniper rifle?
- Thread starter Pond James Pond
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@ Bart
1. if they are skilled enough to judge shots from great distances and hit targets , then yes. the white death was a hunter and became a well known sniper with his mosin, as he had initial skills from hunting that he brought into his job
truthfully though the term SNIPER is a designation given by a military to an individual, whose job is to learn concealment, tactics and high level skills
2. its typical for military SNIPERS to buy a marksmen rifle, and put cash to setup for their needs. such as a Remington 700 or the like. in the military your usually either given a rifle or are allowed on you own personally to use in combat.
for police in my state , they are given a budget to build a rifle for "sniper" scenario, meaning have to take out enemy targets in a building or a terrorist / robber type scenario, were accuracy is crucial . but all they are is a marksmen
and what skills are you referring to? these men and women are trained and taught mathematics/physics that are meant for them to accomplish the missions they would given.
that means ballistics calculations, long periods of camouflage , and knowing your rifle. now granted there would always be some below the bar . but the majority have to be trained thoroughly before put into the field.
if you'd like refer to the AMERICAN SNIPER , chris kyle, books.
snipers are people trained in concealment, tactics, and have to have a iron will and a strong patience to do the job and the tasks required by them for their job.
truthfully a marksmen is a good shooter and is often confused with the term sniper. i can state many people are marksmen. but they are not a SNIPER. snipers can make gillie suits, stalk targets, camouflage, and are seriously trained and taught skills
a sniper is an official designation and profession for military , thats the real meaning.
many people who are marksmen, call themselves snipers, but are just good shots. now i would call them great shots and marksmen but i would not designate them as snipers.they can however try to become one in the military
police have people called snipers , but usually they are swat with a well built hunting rifle.
overal its a military designation. now hunters, marksmen and blinkers can be inducted as snipers if they tried to apply in that feild .
1. if they are skilled enough to judge shots from great distances and hit targets , then yes. the white death was a hunter and became a well known sniper with his mosin, as he had initial skills from hunting that he brought into his job
truthfully though the term SNIPER is a designation given by a military to an individual, whose job is to learn concealment, tactics and high level skills
2. its typical for military SNIPERS to buy a marksmen rifle, and put cash to setup for their needs. such as a Remington 700 or the like. in the military your usually either given a rifle or are allowed on you own personally to use in combat.
for police in my state , they are given a budget to build a rifle for "sniper" scenario, meaning have to take out enemy targets in a building or a terrorist / robber type scenario, were accuracy is crucial . but all they are is a marksmen
and what skills are you referring to? these men and women are trained and taught mathematics/physics that are meant for them to accomplish the missions they would given.
that means ballistics calculations, long periods of camouflage , and knowing your rifle. now granted there would always be some below the bar . but the majority have to be trained thoroughly before put into the field.
if you'd like refer to the AMERICAN SNIPER , chris kyle, books.
snipers are people trained in concealment, tactics, and have to have a iron will and a strong patience to do the job and the tasks required by them for their job.
truthfully a marksmen is a good shooter and is often confused with the term sniper. i can state many people are marksmen. but they are not a SNIPER. snipers can make gillie suits, stalk targets, camouflage, and are seriously trained and taught skills
a sniper is an official designation and profession for military , thats the real meaning.
many people who are marksmen, call themselves snipers, but are just good shots. now i would call them great shots and marksmen but i would not designate them as snipers.they can however try to become one in the military
police have people called snipers , but usually they are swat with a well built hunting rifle.
overal its a military designation. now hunters, marksmen and blinkers can be inducted as snipers if they tried to apply in that feild .
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Duzell,
I'm not a sniper. I am a Sniper Employment Officer. The Sniper Employment Course is offered by the US Army Sniper School at Fort Benning to train Infantry Officers in the technical and tactical aspects of integrating Sniper teams into operational planning at the Company and BN level.
I am also an SDM Train the Trainer graduate, and worked alongside SEAL Team 10 in Afghanistan.
Just saying you should probably google "Bart Bobbitt" and read about the man you are trying to school.
Jimro
I'm not a sniper. I am a Sniper Employment Officer. The Sniper Employment Course is offered by the US Army Sniper School at Fort Benning to train Infantry Officers in the technical and tactical aspects of integrating Sniper teams into operational planning at the Company and BN level.
I am also an SDM Train the Trainer graduate, and worked alongside SEAL Team 10 in Afghanistan.
Just saying you should probably google "Bart Bobbitt" and read about the man you are trying to school.
Jimro
im not trying to school him, i was initially posting to the thread topic of what makes a sniper. i was then asked to further define , and i have . i am in know way acting in conflict or "schooling anyone" . and as a graduate and military personal do you feel i have in anyway spoke untruth? is a sniper not a military designation?
Also,
i also did not say anything about gunsmiths in my posts, just that the rifle is adjusted to their needs.
Also,
i also did not say anything about gunsmiths in my posts, just that the rifle is adjusted to their needs.
Duzell,
"the rifle is adjusted to their needs" makes it clear that you've not had any first hand experience with military sniper operations. Snipers are trained to use a rifle, the rifle is not modified to suit the sniper.
Modifications to a rifle happen through an MWO, or "Modification Work Order" and are applicable to every weapon system affected by the MWO. In terms of "customizing" a rifle it is simply not done, unless you call using the built in LOP adjustment on an H&S stock "customization." Although the last MWO I looked at for the M24 included the addition of an adjustable cheek piece for more consistent cheek weld.
As far as the SEALs or other SOCOM units go, they still have to follow the rules of whatever parent organization has. For the SEALs that is usually whatever NSWC Crane puts out (got to shoot a High Power match with one of the creators of the Mk248 Mod1 ammo).
There are Snipers out there who do modify their issue rifles outside the scope of an MWO, and there are Commanders who turn a blind eye. That doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it smart policy.
Jimro
"the rifle is adjusted to their needs" makes it clear that you've not had any first hand experience with military sniper operations. Snipers are trained to use a rifle, the rifle is not modified to suit the sniper.
Modifications to a rifle happen through an MWO, or "Modification Work Order" and are applicable to every weapon system affected by the MWO. In terms of "customizing" a rifle it is simply not done, unless you call using the built in LOP adjustment on an H&S stock "customization." Although the last MWO I looked at for the M24 included the addition of an adjustable cheek piece for more consistent cheek weld.
As far as the SEALs or other SOCOM units go, they still have to follow the rules of whatever parent organization has. For the SEALs that is usually whatever NSWC Crane puts out (got to shoot a High Power match with one of the creators of the Mk248 Mod1 ammo).
There are Snipers out there who do modify their issue rifles outside the scope of an MWO, and there are Commanders who turn a blind eye. That doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it smart policy.
Jimro
so the rifles are not situated with the camouflage of the area they are located, shrubs, grass , ferns , leaves, nor are they calibrated to shoot range of the target ?
such as clicks to accommodate the shooters eye characteristic?
also are the rifles not outfitted with scopes & stocks that do not normally come with the rifle?
these count as being "adjusted" to their needs, and as you state they must learn what they are given, but that does not mean shooters dont do fine adjustments so they can shoot the rifles to the needs of a situation.
these rifles were designed to be used by the sniper and are built to specific tolerance ?
-sorry if i come off as either edgy or monotone
im actually asking in a question based tone, im very curios about the rifles setup, and how they are engineered
such as clicks to accommodate the shooters eye characteristic?
also are the rifles not outfitted with scopes & stocks that do not normally come with the rifle?
these count as being "adjusted" to their needs, and as you state they must learn what they are given, but that does not mean shooters dont do fine adjustments so they can shoot the rifles to the needs of a situation.
these rifles were designed to be used by the sniper and are built to specific tolerance ?
-sorry if i come off as either edgy or monotone
im actually asking in a question based tone, im very curios about the rifles setup, and how they are engineered
Painting a rifle is not "modifying" a rifle, it is considered "camofulaging personal equipment" and even been authorized for non-sniper rifles and equipment. Camouflaging personal equipment is a "skill level 10" common task in the US Army.
You don't "calibrate" a sniper rifle. You confirm zero at a known distance range, and verify the ballistics of the particular lot of ammunition you are using. If you happen to change lots of ammo in combat though it isn't like it is with mortars where you have to re-register. With some optics like the Leupold Mk4 10x you can calibrate the BDC turret to the zero, but that is not universal to all optical devices.
I don't know what you mean by "clicks to accomidate the shooters eye characteristic" at all. Most scopes have an occular and parallax adjustment, but neither adjusts by clicks.
As far as having a choice of optics, there are several day, thermal, and night vision optics that can be fitted to a rifle using the modular M1913 Picatinny rail system. If it isn't in the inventory, it will not get fitted to the rifle without Command approval. For what it is worth the Army uses Leupold (although there may be some Bausch and Lomb 10x40s still hanging around the inventory) and the USMC uses Schmidt and Bender (although I'm sure there are still some Unertl scopes still in the inventory somewhere), and the SEALs in RC-South were using Nightforce optics on their Mk20s. For night/thermal optics there are multiple options including the AN/PVS-10.
As far as changing out stocks, that is not done on an individual basis. Sometimes there will be more than one stock in the inventory for a particular rifle system such as the USMC M40 (I think they are up to six versions of stocks for that rifle at this point, don't quote me). If a shooter uses a particular stock better than another it is possibe to get that stock put on, but only if it is in the inventory and only if it is available. SOCOM has had some "SOCOM Only" or "SOPMOD" modifications where additional stocks were tried, such as the AICS family, but that is all done through their variation of the MWO.
But suffice to say, if a sniper is convinced a Manners stock or Choate is the absolute best for him, odds are highly unlikely that they'll get one. There are cases of donated or alternately procurred equipment showing up in combat zones, often from the National Guard, but that just means that piece of equipment really is "irreplaceable" as it won't be found in the inventory.
Some sniper rifles are "Commercial Off the Shelf" like the M110 (AKA Knights SR-25) and M107 (Barrett M82), and were built for the civilian market first, not the military Sniper. Others such as the M40, M24, and XM2010 were purpose built by defense contractors for Snipers. Other sniper systems, like the M21/M25 and SAGE EBR (designed for SDMs, often used by snipers) were "GOTS" or "Government Off The Shelf" solutions. Things like the Mk20 were just remnants of a procurement program that was terminated.
Either way, the performance standards for a sniper rifle generally have to do with whether or not the system can maintain an expected level of accuracy. That varies between systems, for the M107 it is about 4 MOA with ball ammo, for the M24 it is 1 MOA with match ammo.
Jimro
You don't "calibrate" a sniper rifle. You confirm zero at a known distance range, and verify the ballistics of the particular lot of ammunition you are using. If you happen to change lots of ammo in combat though it isn't like it is with mortars where you have to re-register. With some optics like the Leupold Mk4 10x you can calibrate the BDC turret to the zero, but that is not universal to all optical devices.
I don't know what you mean by "clicks to accomidate the shooters eye characteristic" at all. Most scopes have an occular and parallax adjustment, but neither adjusts by clicks.
As far as having a choice of optics, there are several day, thermal, and night vision optics that can be fitted to a rifle using the modular M1913 Picatinny rail system. If it isn't in the inventory, it will not get fitted to the rifle without Command approval. For what it is worth the Army uses Leupold (although there may be some Bausch and Lomb 10x40s still hanging around the inventory) and the USMC uses Schmidt and Bender (although I'm sure there are still some Unertl scopes still in the inventory somewhere), and the SEALs in RC-South were using Nightforce optics on their Mk20s. For night/thermal optics there are multiple options including the AN/PVS-10.
As far as changing out stocks, that is not done on an individual basis. Sometimes there will be more than one stock in the inventory for a particular rifle system such as the USMC M40 (I think they are up to six versions of stocks for that rifle at this point, don't quote me). If a shooter uses a particular stock better than another it is possibe to get that stock put on, but only if it is in the inventory and only if it is available. SOCOM has had some "SOCOM Only" or "SOPMOD" modifications where additional stocks were tried, such as the AICS family, but that is all done through their variation of the MWO.
But suffice to say, if a sniper is convinced a Manners stock or Choate is the absolute best for him, odds are highly unlikely that they'll get one. There are cases of donated or alternately procurred equipment showing up in combat zones, often from the National Guard, but that just means that piece of equipment really is "irreplaceable" as it won't be found in the inventory.
Some sniper rifles are "Commercial Off the Shelf" like the M110 (AKA Knights SR-25) and M107 (Barrett M82), and were built for the civilian market first, not the military Sniper. Others such as the M40, M24, and XM2010 were purpose built by defense contractors for Snipers. Other sniper systems, like the M21/M25 and SAGE EBR (designed for SDMs, often used by snipers) were "GOTS" or "Government Off The Shelf" solutions. Things like the Mk20 were just remnants of a procurement program that was terminated.
Either way, the performance standards for a sniper rifle generally have to do with whether or not the system can maintain an expected level of accuracy. That varies between systems, for the M107 it is about 4 MOA with ball ammo, for the M24 it is 1 MOA with match ammo.
Jimro
I sometimes wished I'd told my detailer in the Pentagon back in the early 70's to go ahead and let the USN SEAL Team commanders wanting me to let me assigned to that unit at the Army command at the Hawthorne, NV depot to train snipers in marksmanship. I knew a few and shot matches with them. One almost was awarded the MOH for what he did in 'Nam, but with his M1911 .45 auto instead of his Rem M40 that was broken in the helo crash he survived. He got the Navy Cross instead.
interesting, so the overall design is usually set at the inventory level, meaning you take in so many rifles and make them to a standard system. then deploy them to the units ?
is camo painting done at this stage or by the unit who is issued one?
(sorry my wording is bad, didnt mean to confuse, i was talking about the defects in eyes from one shooter to another, say one has a defect in lens of his eye, do you adjust the eyepiece or get a prescription lens?)
the clicks refereed tot he windage elevations just my slang for adjustment on the turrets
and i know about ammo characteristics, thus why zeroing in one ammo VS using a new type can change your zero point. but i thought the snipers would either get high end ammo or is it just the standard variety (mass amounts of surplus ?)
is camo painting done at this stage or by the unit who is issued one?
(sorry my wording is bad, didnt mean to confuse, i was talking about the defects in eyes from one shooter to another, say one has a defect in lens of his eye, do you adjust the eyepiece or get a prescription lens?)
the clicks refereed tot he windage elevations just my slang for adjustment on the turrets
and i know about ammo characteristics, thus why zeroing in one ammo VS using a new type can change your zero point. but i thought the snipers would either get high end ammo or is it just the standard variety (mass amounts of surplus ?)
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I've always figured that a sniper was a military guy, looking to kill enemy folks at longer than usual distances. And, with a more accurate rifle than the standard military issue.
If you're not military but are civilian, you might have a good use for a highly accurate rifle, but buying a "sniper" rifle strikes me as sorta silly. Who ya planning on killing? Or are you sucked in by the hype?
IMO, same sort of thing for "police" rifles. How often, this side of Lon Horiuchi, have cops shot at folks at longer distances?
I figure a fella oughta buy and shoot whatever his little heart desires, but thinking about the use is more important than buying into the advertising.
If you're not military but are civilian, you might have a good use for a highly accurate rifle, but buying a "sniper" rifle strikes me as sorta silly. Who ya planning on killing? Or are you sucked in by the hype?
IMO, same sort of thing for "police" rifles. How often, this side of Lon Horiuchi, have cops shot at folks at longer distances?
I figure a fella oughta buy and shoot whatever his little heart desires, but thinking about the use is more important than buying into the advertising.
Yes, the military will have one type built to the same spec. Any variation off of baseline requires a MWO. The idea is that any school trained Sniper can use any issue rifle in the inventory, everything is standard.
The end user will camouflage their equipment.
Shooters wear prescription lenses, or undergo PRK corrective surgery. The optic on the rifle is not designed to account for vision differences in shooters.
The Sniper and the Spotter (and generally the radioman/third guy for security) will all confirm zero on the same sniper weapon system. If there are any differences in zero between shooters, those will be recorded in the individual shooters data book about what those differences are.
There are multiple standards for sniper ammunition, the two that are currently in production are M118LR and M118R Mk316 Mod0. The M118R uses the 175gr SMK, Reloader15 powder, arsenal primer, and Lake City match brass. Mk316 Mod0 uses the 175gr SMK, IMR4065 powder, Fed GMM primer, and a custom Federal match case. The accuracy standards for both loads are very good, but there is no guarantee they will shoot to the same point of aim/impact as the other. There is also no guarantee that two different lots of the same spec ammo will shoot to the same poi.
In 300 Win Mag, there are also two loads in the inventory, the Mk248 Mod0 (190gr SMK) and Mk248 Mod1 (220gr SMK). Either load is ballistically superior to the 7.52x51 in terms of maximum range, but you normally only find 300 Win Mag sniper rifles with SOCOM units, although the XM2010 is filtering into the inventory slowly.
Sniper will also get a "holdover zero" or actual zero for M80 ball just in case they run out of good ammo to shoot. My last sniper team was knocking down pop ups at 500 meters with M80, and the aiming point was five mils low, four mils left. Using ball ammo is not preferred, but it is important to know how to use it if you have to.
Jimro
Maybe it's splitting hairs but snipers act outside of their squads, in small teams of two or three people, usually forward of their units, acting as intelligence gathering scouts as well as assassinating the enemy from concealed locations, not all sniper shots are at extreme ranges.
Marksmen or sharpshooters remain a part of the squad, they just specialize in hitting long range targets, picking off enemy artillery crew and such.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
No argument, B.L.E., but I figure that my military perspective is valid. Face it, many people bring up the name "Hathcock" in this context.
My amusement is about civilians being persuaded that there is something cute and clever about the designation for a rifle at Joe Putz's gun shop.
My amusement is about civilians being persuaded that there is something cute and clever about the designation for a rifle at Joe Putz's gun shop.
reynolds357
New member
I know that from a police perspective the insurance companies want us to use rifles that were purpose built for l.e. or military application. The insurance company does not want the SWAT team Marksman Observer using his favorite varmint rifle.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Visualize an insurance agent's face when you ask, "So you only want us to use a proven man-killer?" 
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