What makes a sniper rifle?
- Thread starter Pond James Pond
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I thought that was the coolest idea ever when I first read about Hathcock fitting a scope on the ma duece. I just think of a more standard rifle, when I think 'sniper', the 50, the 5,7, etc. are purchased for more specific reasons. I say purchased (not procured) because these things go out to bid. But, since the military knows what it wants (very specifically) they tend to write the specs so they already know which companies rifle will fill it. (Kind of funny rem got the m2010 contract; although the barrett MRAD looks pretty good to me!)
Jim243, thank you for mentioning Timothy Murphy, a great shot with a Kentucky Rifle (I guess that's why they call it Kentucky Windage).
Jim243, thank you for mentioning Timothy Murphy, a great shot with a Kentucky Rifle (I guess that's why they call it Kentucky Windage).
49willys asks:
Most services picking one typically want them more accurate than standard issue rifles. During WWII, some M1903A3's with star-gauged (better than average) barrels were fitted with Unertl 8X target scopes. Same for some Winchester Model 70 National Match rifles using the same scope. They shot military ammo more accurate than the Garand did. Oft times, good lots of AP ammo were used as it was more accurate than standard ball ammo. Once in a while, a lot of .30-06 match ammo was found and issued.
More modern bolt action rifles were later used and their ammo was better. Check out the ammo accuracy specs in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M24_Sniper_Weapon_System#Match-Grade_Ammunition
Checking the MIL SPEC MIL-R-71126(AR) accuracy standards for the M24 (search for it then download it), it's the mean radius of test groups as follows: 200 yards, 1.3 inches, 300 yards, 1.9 inches
That's half the average group size or the average distance shot holes are from group center but the extreme spread between widest shots is 2 to 3 times bigger. A 1.9 inch mean radius at 300 yards translates to about 6 inches extreme spread at 300 yards; that's 2 MOA. But its more accurate than standard issue rifles. And the M24's barrel is considered worn out when accuracy opens up to 3.8 inches mean radius at 300 yards; about 12 inches extreme spread or 4 MOA.
In the late 1960's, I once watched the people at the USN Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego test fire Remington M40 7.62 NATO sniper rifles from a machine rest testing for accuracy with M118 7.62 match ammo. About 30 shots were made with different lots of ammo were tested. The lot that shot most accurate had two ammo cans (840 rounds) packaged with the rifle, its silencer and Redfield 3-9X scope, then was shipped to SEAL Teams. 600 yard accuracy was about 10 inches; 1.67 MOA. For a comparison, the Unit's best rebuilt 7.62 NATO chambered M1 (Garand) match rifles would shoot good lots of commercial .308 Win. match ammo into about 4 inches extreme spread at 600 yards.
No, I don't think so.
Most services picking one typically want them more accurate than standard issue rifles. During WWII, some M1903A3's with star-gauged (better than average) barrels were fitted with Unertl 8X target scopes. Same for some Winchester Model 70 National Match rifles using the same scope. They shot military ammo more accurate than the Garand did. Oft times, good lots of AP ammo were used as it was more accurate than standard ball ammo. Once in a while, a lot of .30-06 match ammo was found and issued.
More modern bolt action rifles were later used and their ammo was better. Check out the ammo accuracy specs in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M24_Sniper_Weapon_System#Match-Grade_Ammunition
Checking the MIL SPEC MIL-R-71126(AR) accuracy standards for the M24 (search for it then download it), it's the mean radius of test groups as follows: 200 yards, 1.3 inches, 300 yards, 1.9 inches
That's half the average group size or the average distance shot holes are from group center but the extreme spread between widest shots is 2 to 3 times bigger. A 1.9 inch mean radius at 300 yards translates to about 6 inches extreme spread at 300 yards; that's 2 MOA. But its more accurate than standard issue rifles. And the M24's barrel is considered worn out when accuracy opens up to 3.8 inches mean radius at 300 yards; about 12 inches extreme spread or 4 MOA.
In the late 1960's, I once watched the people at the USN Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego test fire Remington M40 7.62 NATO sniper rifles from a machine rest testing for accuracy with M118 7.62 match ammo. About 30 shots were made with different lots of ammo were tested. The lot that shot most accurate had two ammo cans (840 rounds) packaged with the rifle, its silencer and Redfield 3-9X scope, then was shipped to SEAL Teams. 600 yard accuracy was about 10 inches; 1.67 MOA. For a comparison, the Unit's best rebuilt 7.62 NATO chambered M1 (Garand) match rifles would shoot good lots of commercial .308 Win. match ammo into about 4 inches extreme spread at 600 yards.
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Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
A typical sniper rifle is built for optimal levels of accuracy, fitted with a telescopic sight and chambered for a military centerfire cartridge. The term is often used in the media to describe any type of accurized firearm fitted with a telescopic sight that is employed against human targets.
The critical aspect which distinguishes a sniper from other types of shooters is the concept of protective distance, NOT THE RIFLE.
Protective Distance is the range at which the sniper feels he can maintain his sense of remoteness from his target and not feel immediately threatened by him or by-standers.
Protective distance is not measured in yards or meters, its literal and figurative. The actual physical distance between the sniper and target can be less then 2 yards to over 2000 yards.
So "What makes a sniper Rifle?" What is available to accomplish the task at hand allowing one to take advantage of "protective distance".
Might be a silenced 22 pistol or a Barrett 50 cal and anything in between.
Protective Distance is the range at which the sniper feels he can maintain his sense of remoteness from his target and not feel immediately threatened by him or by-standers.
Protective distance is not measured in yards or meters, its literal and figurative. The actual physical distance between the sniper and target can be less then 2 yards to over 2000 yards.
So "What makes a sniper Rifle?" What is available to accomplish the task at hand allowing one to take advantage of "protective distance".
Might be a silenced 22 pistol or a Barrett 50 cal and anything in between.
Pond James Pond
New member
So there are no characteristics or features that would be sought out on guns issued to snipers and therefore common to this type?
Obviously, if all you have is a M-N, then that is what you use, but given the choice....
Because so far the universal response has been, it is what a sniper uses or what a marketeer decides. While perhaps true, it is some way from the core of the question I was asking.
I see the distinction Kraig has made, but I imagine the protective distance is usually going to be in excess of 300m, or the usual effective range of infantry rifles.
PS, I've since seen another post that does address the question as I intended it: thanks Sure Shot!
Obviously, if all you have is a M-N, then that is what you use, but given the choice....
Because so far the universal response has been, it is what a sniper uses or what a marketeer decides. While perhaps true, it is some way from the core of the question I was asking.
I see the distinction Kraig has made, but I imagine the protective distance is usually going to be in excess of 300m, or the usual effective range of infantry rifles.
PS, I've since seen another post that does address the question as I intended it: thanks Sure Shot!
Mission dictates.
Lets look at it this way. You've identified a target, you asked your sniper section leader to send you a soldier to accomplish a task to eliminate a target that is going to do a bad act.
The soldier or sniper gets the intel and plans his mission, choosing the tool that would suit him best.
He discovers the best chance would be at a crowded soccer game. Noise is his concealment. It would be easy to get close to the target and get out after the act.
He has access to all the weapons in the Army System, from the silenced 22 to air strikes.
Which would allow him to accomplish the mission (which includes escape) without anyone but the target getting hurt.
The over all best weapon any sniper has in his tool box is his brain.
Pond James Pond
New member
So a sniper is simply someone who is given a specific target to eliminate, as opposed to infantry who are given a specific objective to take, retake or defend?
tahunua001
New member
a sniper is a person that is trained specifically for the purpose of sniping and yes, his target is usually a single individual or can be many again as kraig said the mission dictates the target. infantry are not given the training to move behind enemy lines undetected and wait for several days if need be to eliminate their target. infantry are trained to kill bad guys as part of a team or squad as the tactics of the era dictate. in world war 1 this was through trench warfare, in WWII it involved beach landings, long marches through swamps, fields, forests, and mountains and today it is moving from door to door clearing buildings. snipers however have had a relatively unchanged set of skills and training because the premise has remained unchanged: get in, remove your target, get out.
@Pond James Pond:
Being, only a sportsman, the above statement made smile.
Like just give a rifle, or a broom to my mother in law, to eliminate target!
The sniper redefined!
LOL!
Pond, James Pond - there is various sniper manuals available on internet in pdf, and this will give you much better picture of versatility of sniper duties:
Not to mention the selection process, training, evaluation, attitude, various skills, survival techniques etc..and extreme sharpshooting skills. Duties may vary from scouting, eliminating various targets (human or technical), support to other units, planting explosives, etc...
Coming back to subject of what is a sniper rifle:
One of the best snipers in hystory (Hayha, Finland) used standard issue mossin nagan with iron sights - thus optical sight does not make sniper rifle. Hatckock in Vietnam used browning cal 50 machine gun, thus - the rifle may even be automatic weapon.
If deer rifle is rifle used for deer hunting.
Trap shotgun, is shotgun for trap.
Skeet shotgun, shotgun for skeet.
Sporting gun, a gun for various sports, hunting or target shooting.
etc.
The conclusion is: the sniper rifle is rifle used by professional sniper, for specific purpose, which will further define the level of accuracy, type of sights, additional gadgets (like night vision sights), etc.
End of story.
Being, only a sportsman, the above statement made smile.
Like just give a rifle, or a broom to my mother in law, to eliminate target!
The sniper redefined!
LOL!
Pond, James Pond - there is various sniper manuals available on internet in pdf, and this will give you much better picture of versatility of sniper duties:
Not to mention the selection process, training, evaluation, attitude, various skills, survival techniques etc..and extreme sharpshooting skills. Duties may vary from scouting, eliminating various targets (human or technical), support to other units, planting explosives, etc...
Coming back to subject of what is a sniper rifle:
One of the best snipers in hystory (Hayha, Finland) used standard issue mossin nagan with iron sights - thus optical sight does not make sniper rifle. Hatckock in Vietnam used browning cal 50 machine gun, thus - the rifle may even be automatic weapon.
If deer rifle is rifle used for deer hunting.
Trap shotgun, is shotgun for trap.
Skeet shotgun, shotgun for skeet.
Sporting gun, a gun for various sports, hunting or target shooting.
etc.
The conclusion is: the sniper rifle is rifle used by professional sniper, for specific purpose, which will further define the level of accuracy, type of sights, additional gadgets (like night vision sights), etc.
End of story.
To throw some other things into the mix, "sniper" is a term widely used and misused today.
About the only common thing is that (today) a sniper is someone who shoots people, from concealment, and usually at some distance.
The military has developed a very special set of requirements over the years, and often disparages anything less as not being a "sniper".
A "sniper" need not be someone who has the deep training needed to operate behind enemy lines, and wait for days if necessary to hit a specific target. Someone who can is certrainly a sniper, but many, many historical snipers do not fall in that category.
Police have "snipers", although at first they called them "counter snipers" and now generally call them sharpshooters or marksmen. They don't typically operate at the distances of a military sniper, nor is there any "behind enemy lines" type stuff involved. One can call them whatever seems best for political advantage, but what they are, are snipers.
The criminal shooter named the "DC Sniper" (who it turned out were a pair of people who justified murder with religious fanaticism) used an AR, fired from inside a modified car (for concealment), at not very great distances.
The Minutemen of the US revolutionary war were "snipers" to the British (although the British didn't use the term at the time), as they fired from concealment, rather than standing in the open, like "proper" soldiers did.
Carlos Hathcock did make a very long shot using a scoped M2 .50 caliber machinegun, but he did not use is as an automatic weapon, he fired it as a semi-auto, one shot at a time.
Haya (I understand) shot a number of Russians with a submachine gun, in addition to kills with the rifle.
Many of history's "snipers" were NOT specially trained individuals designated by their military as snipers, but were rather simply skilled individuals, often regular infantry, who became designated snipers as their skills were recognized.
Their "training" was OJT, and later served as the basis for the specialized training that has been developed and is in use now.
Another story is the one about Unertl, who was a sniper during WW I. He was so disgusted with the optics available that he began making his own. When he came to the US as a immigrant, he was asked if he ever killed anyone. Supposedly he replied, "yes, 96 Bulgarians". They let him in.
About the only common thing is that (today) a sniper is someone who shoots people, from concealment, and usually at some distance.
The military has developed a very special set of requirements over the years, and often disparages anything less as not being a "sniper".
A "sniper" need not be someone who has the deep training needed to operate behind enemy lines, and wait for days if necessary to hit a specific target. Someone who can is certrainly a sniper, but many, many historical snipers do not fall in that category.
Police have "snipers", although at first they called them "counter snipers" and now generally call them sharpshooters or marksmen. They don't typically operate at the distances of a military sniper, nor is there any "behind enemy lines" type stuff involved. One can call them whatever seems best for political advantage, but what they are, are snipers.
The criminal shooter named the "DC Sniper" (who it turned out were a pair of people who justified murder with religious fanaticism) used an AR, fired from inside a modified car (for concealment), at not very great distances.
The Minutemen of the US revolutionary war were "snipers" to the British (although the British didn't use the term at the time), as they fired from concealment, rather than standing in the open, like "proper" soldiers did.
Carlos Hathcock did make a very long shot using a scoped M2 .50 caliber machinegun, but he did not use is as an automatic weapon, he fired it as a semi-auto, one shot at a time.
Haya (I understand) shot a number of Russians with a submachine gun, in addition to kills with the rifle.
Many of history's "snipers" were NOT specially trained individuals designated by their military as snipers, but were rather simply skilled individuals, often regular infantry, who became designated snipers as their skills were recognized.
Their "training" was OJT, and later served as the basis for the specialized training that has been developed and is in use now.
Another story is the one about Unertl, who was a sniper during WW I. He was so disgusted with the optics available that he began making his own. When he came to the US as a immigrant, he was asked if he ever killed anyone. Supposedly he replied, "yes, 96 Bulgarians". They let him in.
Pond James Pond
New member
I am confident that members probably know the type of rifle I am referring to in the OP, the CZ 750 having been exemplar in the post.
Clearly I was asking the wrong question!!
So, what should I call these rifles and if they have a category of their own what makes them eligible to be called "that"?
Clearly I was asking the wrong question!!
So, what should I call these rifles and if they have a category of their own what makes them eligible to be called "that"?
4runnerman
New member
No such thing as a Sniper Rifle. As other have pointed out a Sniper is the shooter not the rifle. His rifle is very accurate,but it is not called a Sniper Rifle so to say.
Its kind of like Assault Rifle, its how its used.
MI Garand, used to assault the beaches of Normandy was an assault rifle or battle rifle.
A M1C/D with or without scopes was used as a sniper rifle.
M1 used in High Power or CMP Vintage Rifle Games is a target rifle.
A M16a1 with our without glass was as used in Vietnam as a battle rifle, jungle carbine, and in stay behind operations as a sniper rifle.
A M16 or AR used in used in NRA or CMP Modern Military matches and 3-gun matches is target rifle.
The same two rifles can be used as hunting rifles.
The list of examples is end less.
MI Garand, used to assault the beaches of Normandy was an assault rifle or battle rifle.
A M1C/D with or without scopes was used as a sniper rifle.
M1 used in High Power or CMP Vintage Rifle Games is a target rifle.
A M16a1 with our without glass was as used in Vietnam as a battle rifle, jungle carbine, and in stay behind operations as a sniper rifle.
A M16 or AR used in used in NRA or CMP Modern Military matches and 3-gun matches is target rifle.
The same two rifles can be used as hunting rifles.
The list of examples is end less.
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