What is the toughest aftermarket finish availible?

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I had to take my PSP apart because the piece that causes the slide to close when you squeeze it, rotated out of place. Gee, do I want a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, or do I want to put this %%#$%# thing back together?

For my largish hands, my P7's are a little thin, and the trigger pull on them is a little lighter than I like when I'm excited and getting ready to shoot someone. If you practice under extreme duress under somewhat actual combat conditions, together with that light trigger, I have seen more than one AD. Don't get me wrong. I spend plenty of money on H&K products, but my love for any particular firearm doesn't influence me anymore when I need a particular tool for a job.

Also, roughly eyeballing it, the Glock 19 is about the same size. That Glock is the smallest I can hope to control well.

The carbon nitride or titanium nitride finish is unique. It can come in many colors, and the surface finish can be anything you want.
The point is, the coating is very thin, very hard, yet so thin, that if you dent a piece of metal with this stuff on it, it doesn't flake-off or peel. It's very slippery and makes cleaning a breeze. One of my Desert Eagles has it, and cleaning is easy. If they could only do rifle barrels...

If you could only work a slide or dryfire a firearm that has this stuff on it, you would know exactly what I mean. There are other really good finishes, but....
 
The Limcat website says that the finish comes in black (only?) and costs $225. Sounds like it might be a good way to go even though it is twice as expensive as Metacol3.
 
Dave,

Hmm, sound interesting, I might have to go with that finish. $200 or so sounds reasonable if I don't have to get it redone every 5 years.

A P7 have a part move out of place? Blasphemy!!! Seriously, I have had three apart in my day and I am suprised that could physically happen--oh well, I guess if Kim Basinger can win an oscar anything is possible. I suspect gun was just mad at you for having impure thoughts about those evil Glocks!

As far as ADs, the Glock probably reigns supreme in that category--they have even made a special trigger to keep moronic LEOs from shooting themselves and others (the famous "New York" Trigger). I had this discussion with Rob a while back. The general conclusion seemed to be is that there is no cure for stupid. Still, I find the squeeze-cocking system to be a heck of a lot more forgiving than the typical Glock set-up. For instance, the local Glock dealer recomends putting in a lighter trigger almost immediately--I presume to remedy the sloppy feel on the stock 5-7lb set-up. The funny thing is, I know several long time P7 owners and not one of us has had an AD (take note, however, 2 of them are also Glock and Colt owners, and the haven't had any Ad's with them either). However, both of them refuse to use their Glocks for concealed carry because of the risk of accidential discharge (both of them prefer to carry their guns up front, inside the pants). Neither of them have a problem carrying their P7's there (although one prefers his Sig 229--decocked of course). The beauty of the P7 is that once it is decocked, there is virtually no chance of AD.

As far as width, I agree, it is very thin. However, this is a huge advantage to me. I have small-medium sized hands and the P7 feels perfect. But, if the gun is too compact for you the gun's general superiority over the Glock won't do you any good. Sounds like you need an M13--there is a baseball bat for yah! Take note, however, the G19 is a bit larger, I have compared them many times before.

No my friend, I have not yet been swayed to give up my beloved P7s for the Glock. Still, if Kim Basinger can win an oscar...

[I want to go ahead and apologize to everybody who thinks that Kim Basinger truly is an oscar-caliber actor...once again, I admit to being a horse's rear]



[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited July 28, 1999).]
 
Sorry again for the late post.

I have to instruct on many different kinds of weapons, and if one is going to use the P7, they really, IMHO, should stay with it exclusively. It's just a tool, albeit a nice one. The folks that I increasingly find myself in contact with are in harm's way and have seen the elephant, more than once. (apologies to Rob) Nice as they are, I know of no operator that I have ever run into that carries one. Most of these folks can certainly afford them. True, someone won a European IPSC match once with an unmodified P7 (or PSP, I can't recall) but a Marcinko novel notwithstanding, Per Miyamoto Mushashi, it is dangerous to fall in love with your equipment. You sound like you have a love affair with yours. I can't blame you.

Don't take this offensively, but I KNOW I will probably be in gunfights before I (hopefully) die of old age, and I tend to "follow the path of the person that has made it ALL THE WAY through the minefield." Bottom line is, many people, including myself have used Glocks, and are alive because of them.
The right tool for the job. Makes sense! ;)
 
David,

You lost me there. What do you mean by "operator?" Are you talking about target shooters, spys, special forces types or the nice people who work at the phone company? In any case, I don't use my gun because anyone else uses it. I did select it after a lot of research and questioning. The facts are the facts, the P7 is a superior weapon for concealed carry and self defense. I have tried varous other guns, (Sigs, HKs, BHP, Glocks, 1911) and none of them could match the P7 in this role. If I wanted a sexy target gun I would buy some sort of $3000 1911. If I wanted a house-sweeping weapon I would get an MP5SD3. What I wanted was a gun that, right out of the box, was compact, reliable, accurate, and most of all safe. The Glock simply cannot touch the P7 in these areas (and that goes double for saftey).
One of the scariest things is how quickly people point out how a novice could make mistakes with the P7's squeeze-cocker system. This is almost certainly the opposite of the truth. The only people who seem to have trouble with the system are those people who have hard-wired other systems into their brains. In fact, a couple of years ago I was at a local gun store (where a novice will almost certainly be sold a Glock-- "That guns a cadillac son!") A friend of mine who worked there was told by his boss how complicated the P7 was, and how they couldn't stand up to the Glock ("Hell, you can shoot the Glock under water!") Of course, when I brought the gun in to buy a holster, the know-it-all didn't even know how to fire it. The fact is, much like the Glock, there is a bunch of nonsense out there about the P7. Still, the Glock is a much more demanding and unforgiving gun for the novice. While any person knows that pulling a trigger might fire a gun, few really know how to handle a gun without making a mistake. The standard Glock allows for no mistakes--a potentially deadly lesson for a novice to learn.

Oh, I have sent off my PSP and am biting my nails worrying about how ugly that satin Chrome job is going to be. Oh well, function before form.

[This message has been edited by Greg Bell (edited August 01, 1999).]
 
Greg, I sent my P7M8 to Rebel Refinishing on July 20. I just received it back, Aug 2. Good turnaround, great job. I too was nervous, but it looks good. I will shoot it tonight at our combat shoot and let you know if there are problems. So far so good. Rebel did what they said they would, when they would.

Good luck
 
Let us know how it turns out. I love my P7 for many of the same reasons you do, but also agree that it's not for everyone. Mine is compact, superbly accurate, and utterly reliable. What else(besides a lower price, of course :))could anyone want?
 
The satin finish will look great. It stands out in the dark, but you probably won't want to wave it around in the dark anyway. :)

My own personal definition of an operator is someone who has actually been in a real gunfight, knifefight, fistfight or some other conflagration where lives are at stake and has learned from it. Being there (a little) has given me a healthy skepticism toward the mentalilty of, "I use the ultimate, perfect, better-than-all the-rest handgun, knife, and what you use is inferior, etc." The folks that tend to use that kind of verbage haven't been in harm's way, in my opinion. The armed professionals that I run into from time to time certainly don't!

When I have voiced this opinion in the past, some feathers were ruffled, perhaps by the uninitiated in the gun crowd. That's just my view. On a life or death issue, what kind of person seeks counsel from people who don't know what they are talking about? That's about as smart as getting advice on ammuntion from Rosie O'Donnell. ;)

Frankly, at this point, all you can honestly offer, is that the P7 meets your needs and works great for you. Nothing more. If your P7 gives you a woody, then I'm happy for you. ;)

I have seen people with P7's that can outshoot folks that use Glocks and vice versa. My instructor experience has been that often times, a person who is one of the best in their field, isn't using the very best "name brand" equipment. They get good equipment, and invest their money on themselves with training! The average person does the opposite. The blow there money on hardware and gun rags, and invest no money on training.

Give me a well trained person with an average pistol and they will blow away an average shooter with the fancy stuff every time. If you don't believe me, e-mail Ross Seyfried. He'll explain.

Too many knowledgeable people (operators!) use Glocks, for it to be an inferior weapon, as you infer. These folks can carry anything they want, and, once again, I RARELY see them
carry P7's. Yes, I love my P7, my PSP, USP, PSG-1, 91, H&K all-in-one loader, Benelli etc., but I don't fool myself into thinking that having that equipment automatically makes someone a superior gunhandler. Making folks believe that nonsense is the job of some gun marketers and salesman. True?

Regrettably, P7's are quite popular with label conscious folks who are into the "snob appeal" scene. Ah, my BMW! My Tommy H. toothbrush! My yacht! My Gucci loafers! My P7! Haven't met one yet that can shoot worth shinola. They have the equipment, but have yet to exploit it. Wrong priorities.
I will make a positive assumption that you are not in that crowd. :) If you are, I'll pray that you never get into a gunbfight. :(

To each his own. A pistol is a very personal thing. Just don't start talking to it! If you have to, don't let anybody hear you. :)
 
David,

I see where your coming from with this "snob appeal" thing. The problem is, there is an opposite and even more deadly problem: people convinced by gun rags and peer pressure that the better selling gun is always going to be the best (therefore: Fiat is better than Porsche). IMHO, people like this are more likely to buy a gun, throw it under the bed, and never shoot it. I have a friend who has a full size Glock 45. The boy carries it on his hip like he is in the old west (sometimes with an overshirt laying barely on top of it). With this boy's attitude you would think he was Brian Enos or something. The guy almost never practices. I must confess that I am only able to shoot 4-5 times a month (plus a LOT of dry-fire)--so I'll probably never be as good as a lot of guys here, including you David. However, the two times I did get him out shooting the boy was a terrible shot. I wanted to chalk it up to the Glock but I tried the gun and was able to shoot it accurately (even though that gun had a miserable grip). He, by the way, has an aftermarket barrel, "competition" trigger and some other sort of doohickey that I can't recall--he often brags about the gun being a bargain. The guy at my favorite range estimates that most of the guns he sells to first time buyers are shot once or never--luckily most of these guns are "Glock perfect." On the other hand, THE ONLY people I know who have had the gonads to plop down 800 plus on a P7 are people who shoot obsessivley.
As far as only shooting guns that "operators" use--that is a philosophy that might lead to some interesting results. Around here the majority of operators are cops. Glock 40's are the guns of choice (mandatory choice on duty). I can out-shoot almost every operator that comes to our range. Unfortunately, the best operator around here is an old sherrif who shoots a S+W 357 revolver--and HATES Glocks. Which operator do I go with, the guy who was issued a S+W about 30 years ago or the 22 year old with the "lowest bidder" wondergun of department choice. Of course I could go find some other operators at the military base up the road--Berreta/Sig here I come! Gun magazine operators?
I have decided that a real "operator" would want the most reliable, safe, accurate and easily carried gun availible. As far as I can tell the P7 is that gun. The Glock is not "inferior" in any absolute sense but is surely not at the top of the list of guns with these attributes. Fortunately, I have had only one chance use a gun for self defense. The P7 served nicely and, thankfully, no shots were neccesary. In my view the best operators are often those that don't ever have to use their art. I practice and know a lot of martial arts people and I always find it funny that the guys who have been in the most real-world fights are no where near the best fighters. Some people just come to class to learn how to "kick-ass" and never learn to appreciate the purpose behind the art of self-defense. A lot of these guys end up getting hurt.

And hey! What is wrong with talking to your gun? I have even named mine!
 
Good info....

I remember a conversation I had with Bill Jordan before he passed on, and, as you might recall, he was a wheelgun man. I was carrying a .45 Glock (still do) and he asked me if I could actually use it. I told him I have and could. He said that was what mattered. Mine is currently stock out-of-the-box.

An interesting side note. About 3-4 years ago, I was out on business around the Virginia Beach area, and had the honor to visit with legendary Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock for several hours. He had an open mind toward new things, but was definitely "old school". I asked him what kind of pistol he carried when he went fishing. "A Glock in .45." Go figure.....
 
David. Sounds like you have plenty of good reasons to carry a Glock 45 (Although I suspect a man with you training would be safe with a lorcin). Wait a minute, 45? Now we have to argue about the relative merits of the 45 v. 9...just kidding!

Ddesalvo, how did the shooting go? Any problems? Tell me this, how did it look? Did they mask anything or did the coat everything but the trigger, heat guard and grips? How about the internals and gas system? I am very anxious to hear.

I would like to say again what a great bunch of guys we have here at TFL. I have learned more about guns in the past few months here than in all of the years before. And it has been fun too!

Greg
 
Greg,
Shot PERFECT. The sights were even put back to where they were supposed to be. Looks good, easier to clean too. The sights were removed, firing pin assembly disassembled, trigger removed. The trigger, sights, fring pin, heat shield and grips are black. The slide sides are polished and plated a satin finish with the slide top a dull non-glare surface(nice touch). The cocking lever sides are polished smooth and the finger contact area is rougher for better grip. The gas retard system worked perfectly. I do not know how they "masked" it, but it functioned flawlessly. The group that I shoot with has about 12 "regulars", 5 with P7M8's. With the weather here in FL, I suspect a couple more P7's will be refinished shortly.

Rebel did an excellent job. If I were to do it over, I would have polished some of the sharper edges first, ie: sides of trigger guard and very front of slide. I sent two new magazines for hard-chroming and they look great too. That leaves my four black magazines for practice. I like the looks and the corosion protection.

"don't compromise"
 
guns387, I have owned three of the brand G guns. There is no comparison in side by side performance. Glocks are fine weapons, but they are not for everyone. If you searched these posts you would find that there advantages to the P7 series and there are disadvantages. Use whatever you feel comfortable and safe with. IMO the P7 fits the bill. BTW no P7 malfunctions at our shoots. Wish I could say the same for the others "son".
 
Gunz, perhaps you meant Sonny. I doubt that you could a quality piece like a Sony. BTW you were incorrect on your observation regarding the malfunctions. Perhaps tonight ther will be another convert.
Glocks are fine weapons, however they are NOT perfect. You shoot what fits your style and requirements. I see by your limited profile that you are new to TFL and that you spray lead for your occupation. Now your posts make sense.
 
Guns,
Get real.

DDesalvo,
I am happy to hear this. I've just sent mine in and I am jumping to see how it looks. If it works out on the PSP I'll send my true love in, my nickel M8. Keep in touch and tell me if the gun has any hiccups.
 
Sonny boy, whats your idea of a perfect pistol? I am all ears if you could find one around the same price as a Glock and also has the same reputation for its relyability!

By the way you kick major ass for you rule the world! :) :) :)


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Criminals prefer unarmed victims
 
it does not matter what you like or dislike in a gun brand, features, price etc. the question was what is the toughest finish available. the question was answered in a long roundabout way.i like them all and yes i can hit what i am shooting at because i do practice!. glock's, sig's , h&k's, berreta, etc. if it works and feel's good in your hand use it.
 
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