What is the range etiquette for this?

When you fire off a round in any semi-auto firearm (assuming no brass catcher), TWO things hit the dirt: 1) the shell and 2) the bullet. Hardly anyone ever mines the berm to retrieve valuable lead. And, many people have no interest in taking their brass. Why is it automatically "thieving" if someone retrieves brass off the ground, when it generally wouldn't be thieving if (against you, the shooter) if someone mines the berm? Also, wouldn't the range rules factor in? If the range rules say: Any brass that hits the ground is no longer the property of the shooter - do you still claim its yours?
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There are certain common sense assumptions that come into play. Bullets are essentially irretrievable in any normal sense. Everyone knows that they will be abandoned. You could make a claim to the gases from the gunpowder too but don't complain to me about the looks you get.

It's thieving the brass because lots of people keep their brass and the owner is still there. If he leaves it and he's GONE, common sense dictates that he left the brass. When the guy is still standing right there, there is no reasonable assumption of abandonment.

Range rules are completely different. First, I know of NO range with a rule that says that the moment the brass touches the ground it's a free for all. Maybe it belongs to the range, that doesn't mean it belongs to the first person who can pounce on it. Even if there is such a rule, you agree to the rule when you use the range. It's not relevant to any other range or situation.

Common sense and courtesy go a long way. For crying out loud, I've had people come into my pizza shop and ask me if they can have something that's sticking out of my dumpster. It's common sense and courtesy. There's absolutely no justification for assuming that someone isn't going to keep their brass. The person is STANDING RIGHT THERE. Especially once they've already told you. If there ever was a question (which should have been asked anyway, not assumed), there certainly is no question once you've been TOLD that the shooter wants their brass.
 
This is just another reason I am happy to belong to a sportsman's club where the rules are the rules and everyone knows them. Non members coming on to the property are trespassing. I have never had a problem like this one. It ois everyone's responsibility to pick up there brass and if they don't want it there is a 5 gallon bucket to throw it in.
In your case you did the right thing in my opinion, safety is always number 1 and a shooting range is not the place to get into an altercation over something as trivial as a few pieces of brass. Yes I know it was your brass and the guy and his wife were definitely in the wrong, but it just wasn't a good idea to get into an altercation with your young daughter present.
Was the guy and his wife dressed well and driving a newer auto or dressed kind of poor and driving an old vehicle ? Maybe they were poor people and pickup brass to sell like some folks pickup bottles to return for the deposit, maybe they even pickup bottles. If you see them coming again just stop shooting and pick up your brass before they get a chance.
 
I have to admit Skans Has a point.

While he's down range stealing, err, "harvesting" my "abandoned" brass & mining the berm for the bullets he's down range, period, (exactly the conditions he suggested made for abandonment & free for all salvage) and anything of his (spotting scope, tripod, range bag, rifle case, rifle, if he racked it, ammo in cans & so on) is in contact with the ground then its mine & I'm not stealing anything because by his own definition he "abandoned" it. I can presumably take his (also abandoned) car to transport my "salvage" in as its also on the ground & he's nowhere near it.:cool:

Hell, some dirty brass for all his stuff? Why not let's just make it a free for all.:D
 
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Sounds like this fellow missed something important in his upbringing. I don't know what I would have done, probably exactly what you did. Sometime things happen and there's just not a good response other than amazement.
 
I used to spend a lot of time fishing with my dad, and he wouldn't let someone walk all over him, especially if I was there. We saw plenty of ugly situations, and the old man never backed down. I learned from his example.
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What, exactly, did you learn?
Is it still applicable in today's world filled with people who lose their frickin' minds over petty problems?

This is an example of how stupid people can be and how they can over-react.
Every one of you fathers waving the tough-guy bravado flag should re-evaluate how you would behave with your children in tow... over brass. :rolleyes:
 
Brian Pfleuger said:
There's absolutely no justification for assuming that someone isn't going to keep their brass. The person is STANDING RIGHT THERE. Especially once they've already told you. If there ever was a question (which should have been asked anyway, not assumed), there certainly is no question once you've been TOLD that the shooter wants their brass.
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This right here is the crux of the issue. It's a little rude for him to just pick up the brass without asking, but it's VERY rude (and it's stealing) to CONTINUE to pick up the brass AFTER the OP asked him not to.

Dashunde said:
Every one of you fathers waving the tough-guy bravado flag should re-evaluate how you would behave with your children in tow... over brass.
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I see where you're coming from on this, and I agree that being a tough guy over brass with your kid there really isn't a good idea. But there are ways to stand up to someone without causing the kind of confrontation you're worried about. Would I say nothing and just leave if someone kept picking up my brass after I asked him not to? No. And would I escalate the situation to a dangerous level with my kid there? No. There are options in between those two extremes.
 
I think the OP did what was right for him and his daughter in the situation he found himself in. Myself, I would send my kid to the car and confront the thief. I would do so only verbally, no need to fight over brass. If the thief wanted to take it to another level, guess I would leave. This business of brass that hits the ground not being the shooters property is plain silly. If the shooter leaves the brass and drives away, ok, its there for the taking. Actually at the private range I belong to if we clean up others brass, it generally gets tossed in 5 gallon pails so the club officers can scrap it and purchase materials to improve the range. And if they cherry pick it to find their personal favorite cases, that's fine by me. They work hard to maintain the club grounds and ranges.
I can't imagine a member of the club stealing another persons brass. They would be reported and have their membership revoked.
I've picked up some brass on the indoor pistol range, I gave it to the owner of the gun that ejected it. I did this simply so I did not step on it and damage someones spent brass. I guess I'm lucky that the members of the club respect each other and practice common sense.
Thieves are thieves no matter what they are taking. I find such actions disgusting.
 
would I escalate the situation to a dangerous level with my kid there? No. There are options in between those two extremes.
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I appreciate the general agreement mentioned, but your follow up assumes that you'd have any control over the reaction of a dense nutbag who has already shown a blatant disrespect for the true owner of the brass.
A second stern response could be understood, or could it could the the flint that lights the guy up..

We've all met these fools... those who do obnoxious self-centered inconsiderate things while pretending to be innocently oblivious to the world around them and I agree that this passive-aggressive baloney is ripe for a solid beat down on principal alone, just not with the kid around because in truth nobody really has control of a situation with one of these oddballs.
 
I try to avoid any confrontations at the range I shoot at. It is a public non-supervised range out in the rural. Generally everyone is polite and courteous. The only time I have ever had a problem is I pulled in with my tuck and he saw my fire department Union sticker and wanted to argue politics with me. After a couple of minutes of him yelling at me and not letting me get a word in edge wise I just put my ear plugs in and walked away and started shooting at my target. I looked back and he was still yelling in my direction. Finally he left and another guy walked over as I was changing my target and said "I want to apologize for my Dad. he just can't let stuff alone." I just said "Don't sweat it. I just didn't want to fight with him." We both went back to shooting and all was good.

I will tell I am NEVER, and I mean NEVER, at that range without a loaded pistol on my hip. I may be shooting another pistol but the one on my hip is loaded, cocked and locked. Call me paranoid if you wish but I will not be a victim because the weapon I am firing is empty and someone sees an opportunity to take my guns.
 
What, exactly, did you learn?
Is it still applicable in today's world filled with people who lose their frickin' minds over petty problems?
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People lost their minds over petty problems back then, too. Yes, it's still applicable.


Every one of you fathers waving the tough-guy bravado flag should re-evaluate how you would behave with your children in tow... over brass.
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I see where you're coming from on this, and I agree that being a tough guy over brass with your kid there really isn't a good idea. But there are ways to stand up to someone without causing the kind of confrontation you're worried about. Would I say nothing and just leave if someone kept picking up my brass after I asked him not to? No. And would I escalate the situation to a dangerous level with my kid there? No. There are options in between those two extremes.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
1. Is it really stealing if you are picking up spent brass when a shooter goes to change his target? You are not interfering with anyone's shooting or creating a dangerous situation.
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In Germany (and a lot of other places) the glass bottles (almost all drinks come in glass bottles) all have a "Pfand" "deposit", you buy a 12 pack of seltzer and it comes in a plastic bin, you save those in your garage and then take a full load back when you get more.
Well when Mr Brass Catcher walks by my house and sees the bottles by my garage where they are stored is he entitled to just take them?
Sorry the scenario got dragged out in typing, seemed shorter in my head lol. :)
 
skans said:
So far this discussion has been 100% one sided. I would like to hear some opinions from those who collect brass at ranges and think its justified in picking up any brass that hits the ground, assuming the firing line is cold.

Here are some thoughts contrary to those already expressed:

1. Is it really stealing if you are picking up spent brass when a shooter goes to change his target? You are not interfering with anyone's shooting or creating a dangerous situation.
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How about picking up another shooter's range bag or spotting scope when he's changing targets? You are not interfering with anyone's shooting or creating a dangerous situation.

What part of "mine" do you not understand? I reload. Any brass I shoot is MY brass, to be used for making more ammunition for ME to shoot. Just because I'm not standing armed guard over it, what makes you think you might have any right to pick up something that you didn't pay for, you have no claim to, and that I have not reliquished title to?

2. If spent brass is important to a shooter, wouldn't that be the first thing he/she picks up when the line goes cold? At what point is it "fair game" to pick up another shooter's spent brass?
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Have you ever shot at an outdoor range where people go downrange to change targets? You want to get down and back as quickly as possible so everyone can get back to a hot range. You police your brass when you're finished shooting (or when it's piled so high you can't move at your bench without mashing it). Fired brass becomes "fair game" when the shooter ends his session and abandons the brass.

3. What if your firearms throws brass several benches from where you are shooting? If I'm at my bench shooting a .22 and your Mini-14 is throwing .223 brass right on top of me, should I be able to keep it?
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Unless range rules say otherwise, my brass is MY brass. I should apologize for throwing brass into your area of operations, but it' still my brass.

4. Don't they make brass catchers for people who want to save their brass?
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Brass catchers make it easier to save and collect brass, but they don't establish ownership.

5. Should people who don't use brass catchers be charged a "waste fee" for leaving shells behind. I know that when I'm shooting, I'm sure there are lots of shells that I miss picking up. Maybe the guy picking up brass should have a "tip jar". What do y'all think?
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That's up to the members of the club or the owner of the range to decide. But now you're talking about brass that has been abandoned, not brass that's being snatched out from under an active shooter's feet.

At the indoor range where I often shoot, there are overhead target runners, so no "cold range" interludes. The range rule is that shooters police their brass when finished. If they want to keep it, they can. If they don't want it, there are buckets in which to dump it. I like to use Winchester brass. If I see someone near me with a nice, new box of Winchester USA in a caliber I reload, I'll catch them during a reload and ask if they save their brass. If the answer is no, I ask if I can have it. Usually the answer is yes.
 
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"I wouldn’t have said a thing,,, I would have walked over and take all the brass he had picked up including the container and said in a nice polite voice,,
“Sir thank you for picking up MY brass.”
It would be up to him to get ugly from there. "

You, sir...are a genius!
 
This is hardly a complicated situation that needs a set of complicated etiquette rules. I've shot at ranges. I've seen brass hitting the floor around me. I saw brass that I wanted. I do scavenge brass. The solution is quite simple. When the guy who is spitting out this brass stops firing, I walk over, and ask "hey buddy, do you keep your brass? I reload that caliber." Problem solved. It typically results in, "no, go ahead and help yourself" or a friendly conversation about reloading. If his brass is landing in my stall and he saves it, I kick it on a pile for hime. Any jerk too rude and obnoxious to ask knows he is wrong, and is betting on his assumption that others will be too "polite" to tell him to beat it.

I totally agree that being polite does not mean being a door mat, and If you let everybody use you as one in front of your children because every person has the potential to be a psycho does not set a good example for your them. Door mats are easy targets for said psychos. Be polite. Be calm. Be assertive. Slowly escalate assertiveness as necessary.
 
TimSR said:
This is hardly a complicated situation that needs a set of complicated etiquette rules. I've shot at ranges. I've seen brass hitting the floor around me. I saw brass that I wanted. I do scavenge brass. The solution is quite simple. When the guy who is spitting out this brass stops firing, I walk over, and ask "hey buddy, do you keep your brass? I reload that caliber." Problem solved. It typically results in, "no, go ahead and help yourself" or a friendly conversation about reloading. If his brass is landing in my stall and he saves it, I kick it on a pile for hime.
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If everyone were that thoughtful, we would need many fewer rules in many contexts. However, we know that not everyone is considerate.

I believe the first range I attended long ago had a rule that if the brass hits the floor, it belongs to the range and one may not leave with it.

If I reloaded and wanted to keep my brass at a public range, I think I would employ some kind of catch that would effectively keep most of it from leaving my possession. Better not to have the problem in the first place than to have to iron it out with someone who is determined to be inconsiderate.
 
I pick up "abandoned" brass. But only with permission. And NO ONE has permission to pick up my brass, unless I give it to them, personally and directly (and that ain't happening, not for anything I reload ;)).

I shoot some guns where the brass is uncommon (and was, even before the ammo panic), and expensive. I have some guns where the only way to get brass is for me to MAKE it.

"Once it hits the ground it's fair game".
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NO, its not. If that is an actual range rule, I won't shoot there.

Some of my brass is literally $1 or more each. Wildcat cases are even more, considering the time I spend making them.

One is not finished with the shooting station when you go downrange to check and change targets. And that includes any brass on the ground. Personally, I often don't pick up my brass until I get back from downrange. This lets me scan the ground in front of the firing line, and retrieve any of my brass that got out there, before the range goes hot again. Brass behind the line, I can pick up while the range is hot, if necessary, and not delay anyone else.

If I leave it when I have packed up and drive away, its yours if you want it. But NOT until then.
 
Every range I've belonged to has the same sign. All brass on floor is the property of range. You are allowed to police your OWN brass. Simply put, anything that's on the floor when you get there belongs to the range and you can't pick it up, other than to put it in the range's brass bucket, which is what I do if the previous shooter has left a mess. Then, anything that collects behind me is mine and I always pick it up. When another reloader shoots next to me the fun begins, Is this yours?:D I've actually gotten more shooting buddies that way.;) Never had anyone so bold as to just pick up MY brass without asking. They WOULDN'T get away with it.
 
I think the crucial point is that the OP was there with his child. Given that the brass thief had ignored every sense of basic decent behavior I think he did the right thing. Walking away from a fight, especially when guns are involved is a good lesson IMHO.

I hope I would have done the same thing. But I'm also pretty sure that I'd be back at the same range with a trusted friend on the same day, and at the same time the following week.
 
I don't understand the assumption that this is a "fight" or will instantly escalate into a fight. There certainly comes a point where the issue has to be let go, at least in terms of immediate confrontation, but being ignored is not that point. There's a long ways between any reasonable assumption of someone being rude and inconsiderate and expecting that their next step is to pull out a gun and kill you and your child.
 
I don't understand the assumption that this is a "fight" or will instantly escalate into a fight.
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Agreed, Hence my post earlier about a scaled increasing escalation. You can call a bluff without going "horse, foot & guns" all at once. IMO 99% of this bad mannered approach is bluff, if you don't call it (within reason) then you just can't be bothered to stand up for yourself. If you can't be bothered why should anyone else?
 
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