What is meant by registering your firearm?

No, I haven't forgotten that at all.

First of all, the special DHS reporting only applies in certain areas--only four states.
Second, it only applies to certain rifle purchases.
Finally, and most importantly, it only applies to multiple purchases within a short amount of time from the same dealer.

That said, it is worth pointing out that multiple gun purchases in a short amount of time from the same FFL dealer is one way to make sure that the federal government gets more information than normal reported to them about your firearm purchases.
 
First of all, the special DHS reporting only applies in certain areas--only four states.
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Which ones? I used the Google machine but couldn't find the answer.

That said, it is worth pointing out that multiple gun purchases in a short amount of time from the same FFL dealer is one way to make sure that the federal government gets more information than normal reported to them about your firearm purchases.
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Found out about this recently. Was news to me.
 
It's the states that border on Mexico. TX, CA, AZ, NM. The ostensible reason for the extra reporting requirement was to make it harder for people to illegally purchase guns to take across into Mexico.
 
Cheapshooter : ; told you exactly right. As long as you don't live in Wash DC, New Jersery, New York, Illinois, California and apparently Wisconsin ... or any other state that have "state registration " requirements of handguns.

All the regs I've seen say the FFL are required to keep the 4473 form for 20 yrs and they can then be destroyed, and go to ATF only if they go out of business before that. NICS checks, don't keep record of what gun you are buying.

If you believe this not to be true, and you don't live in the above states, then .... HOW does a gun get registered when I do a private sale to YOU ? I'm not calling them and doing squat. I don't have to keep your name, a record of the sale, nor anything about you.... other than you were lawfully legal to own the firearm.

What about, in states like mine , where ATF states "if we show we have a valid and current CC permit, they do not even do a NICS check" ??? There is no NICS check required in that situation. And I know we are not the only state that does that. How would the Fed's or the my State have any registration of those guns ?? It's illegal for the Feds to keep any gun registration nor anything close to it.

I'm truly amazed at the lack of knowledge about this being shown by gun owners on a gun forum, as they apply to the majority of the states. For those that live in states that require registration of your guns with the state, or a permit to own one, try electing a legislature that will change the laws and get rid of it.
 
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i live in mass and you have to register firearms...
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Well, sort of, but not exactly. Before I got smart and moved over the border to the north, I spent most of my adult life in the People's Republic. In Mass, you have to file an FA-10 form with the state when you purchase a firearm, either from a dealer or a private seller - typically it's the seller who submits the form - documenting information on both parties as well as on the firearm. In typical Massachusetts fashion, the form is filed with the Criminal History Systems Board - gotta love that. Although the state claims otherwise (and of course they'd never lie), that amounts to de facto registration for new purchases.

There's no requirement, however, to register guns that were purchased prior to the start of the FA-10 submittal requirement, so it's perfectly legal to own unregistered guns, and any old fart gun owners (like me) usually have a number of firearms that aren't "registered" with the state.
 
Just to clarify my earlier post:

I did not mean to imply that there was 'federal registration' per say, in which the fed gov't maintained records such as type of gun, ser. #'s etc. purchased at an FFL holder.

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

I was implying(and maintain) that there is federal registration(or call it what you will) 'by proxy' via the LGS/DEALER/FFL on guns purchased at theses places. As these entities are required by the Feds. to keep all this information available in the event they(the fed. gov't) see's the need to access it.

Also, the few states that do require registration of private sales are requiring it at the State,City, Co. level, not the Fed level.

Thank You JohnKSa for the legal explanations.
 
Mike38 said:
Long story short, while applying for a C&R License, I had a few conversations with an agent from the FBI. This agent was able to read me a list of all firearms I have bought from a FFL dealer, back at least 20 years.
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BuIIshlt.

The NICS examiner does not ask for the make, model, caliber, or serial number of the firearm. It is absolutely not possible for the make, model, caliber or s/n to be linked with the purchaser's name through this process.
 
It's the states that border on Mexico. TX, CA, AZ, NM. The ostensible reason for the extra reporting requirement was to make it harder for people to illegally purchase guns to take across into Mexico.
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Is this actually the case or still subject to a legal challenge?
 
There is/was a lawsuit challenging the multiple reporting requirement imposed by DHS. I'm sorry, but I don't know the outcome.

For what it's worth, regardless of the outcome of the suit, there is still a reporting requirement when multiple handguns are purchased from the same dealer in a short timeframe. That requirement has been in place for many years and applies across the board--not just in the 4 states mention. I don't believe it would be affected by the outcome of the suit.
 
For what it's worth, regardless of the outcome of the suit, there is still a reporting requirement when multiple handguns are purchased from the same dealer in a short timeframe. That requirement has been in place for many years and applies across the board--not just in the 4 states mention. I don't believe it would be affected by the outcome of the suit.
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The ATF was trying to force gun dealers to do this on long guns, AR's, etc. and it went to Fedl Court, and recently the Court it was ruled that it was illegal for the ATF or anyone else to do this.

There is no mutiple gun reporting requirement, unless a specific State is trying to do it.
 
Let me guess, Illinois requires registration and keeps the records accessible via your FOID.
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Actually, IL does not have registration for handguns or long guns at the state level. There are, however, certain localities that may require registration the most notable being, of course, Chicago.
 
Quoting Ben Towe:
"CSI and other police procedurals have been the culprit for spreading the myth of registering a gun. Some are worse than others. NCIS is one of the better ones about real world scenarios, but I've caught a lot of mistakes on there as well. There is no magic computer that can track guns down, only a few states have registration. It is illegal on a Federal level."

Actually, according to that older than dirt amendment, it is illegal on every level. Amazing that originally the first amendment did not bind any but federal lawmakers, but that it was later "ruled" (gitlow v NY) to apply to states and municipalities as well. The second never had any limiting factor to it, and legally bound any agencies within the jurisdiction of the USA from infringing on said rights. It's all in easy to read language in that old piece of paper....a 20 minute read tops.
 
registered

When I run someones gun in Tennessee I'm looking for one of two things.
The dispatcher will come back with "Stolen" or "no record found". That's it..
Stolen- well we got a problem.
No record found- depending on what the stop was made for there's an excellent chance the citizen will be on their way with their gun in their possession and a possible memento of some enforcement action on their person to enrich the great states coffers.
The reason for the stop and the totality of the circumstances dictates what happens on the enforcement action.
 
cheapshooter said:
Kept BY THE DEALER!!! not a government agency! At least not legally kept by the government.
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Just a quibble, not really a correction:

In exchange for becoming a federal licensee, the FFL holder functions under the limited direction and supervision of the federal government, and so is an agent of the federal government.

There is a quid pro quo involved in becoming a licensee; the right to do business falling under the license is coupled with a duty to maintain and relate information on request.

FFL holders are not paid by the government, so they are not federal employees, but the distinction between an FFL holder and government isn't complete.
 
adjective
1.
recorded, as in a register or book; enrolled. dictionary.com

1

a: having the owner's name entered in a register <registered security> Merriam Webster

It seems in either definition that any firearm legally purchased from a dealer is registered.
 
In exchange for becoming a federal licensee, the FFL functions under the limited direction and supervision of the federal government, and so is an agent of the federal government.
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FFL holders are not paid by the federal government, so they are not federal employees, but the distinction between the FFL holder and the government isn't complete
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Bingo... mandatory registration by proxy.

But alas... I guess we should be thankful(lol) that our gov't has made, instilled these laws mandating that the FFL has to maintain gun records the gov't wants. Can you imagine the Fed. taxes that would be imposed by the gov't on a gun purchase if the Feds. kept those records. :rolleyes:
Could hear it now, "We have to charge these gun taxes cause it just cost so much to maintain the records and we need the extra $ to fund operations such as 'Project Gunrunner'. :D
 
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It really bothers me when someone starts a thread with a general question and no specifics, then is absent from the rest of the thread! I mean, three pages of responses and questions and the OP has not even taken the time to check back in? Seems like they don't really need a question answered or have anything worthwhile to contribute, but just want to get a fight started.

Rant over.
 
Long Gun Reporting Requirements

It is not the DHS that is requiring this. It is solely an action of the BATF&E.

In March of 2011, the ATF indicated that they would be making a rule change to require all FFL's to report on all multiple long gun sales (within a 5 day period). The Congress shot down that effort by enacting legislation that would defund any such efforts.

In July, a letter was sent to all FFL's operating in the four border States (AZ, CA, NM and TX - approx. 8500 dealers) that required them to report multiple sales of certain semi-automatic rifles (greater than .22 caliber and includes .223 caliber).

This limited regulation is itself arbitrary and capricious. Consider: A FFL in Crescent City, CA (750+- miles from the border) must report, but a FFL in Las Vegas, NV (240+- miles) is not required to report.

This limited regulation has (now proven) ties to the aborted Operation Fast and Furious, for its inception.

That action is currently being litigated in 4 lawsuits (2 of which have since been consolidated). There have been no decisions in these cases:

  1. NATIONAL SHOOTING SPORTS FOUNDATION, INC. v. MELSON - Motion to relate was granted. J&G SALES, LTD. et al v. MELSON was consolidated. Cross motions for Summary Judgement are before the court.
  2. Ron Peterson Firearms, LLC v. Melson - Motion to relate is under consideration and further motions are stayed.
  3. 10 Ring Precision, Inc. v. Melson - Motion to relate has been denied, but the case has been stayed pending the NSSF lawsuit in D.C.
The DHS (and the PATRIOT Act) have nothing to do with this. It is solely an act of the ATF at the express direction of the DOJ.

Firearms Registration

Registrations of firearms has traditionally been regarded as government action. Local, State and/or Federal action. Federal law itself prevents the Fed.Gov from performing such action.

That leaves the State and local governments. Some have such restrictions, most however, do not.

The NICS check is not a form of registration. The only info (about the firearm) that is presented by the FFL, is whether or not the firearm is a handgun or a long gun. Make, model and serial number is not asked for nor is it disclosed.

For those few States that use something other than the Federal NICS check, there may or may not be some form of recorded information about the purchased firearm (registration).

Even among those few States, only 4 States have statutory registration requirements. On Jan. 1st, 2014, CA will be the only State that registers all firearms - CA requires all firearms transfers to go through an FFL.

ATF Form 4473

All 4473's are to be retained by the FFL for 20 years or turned into the ATF records branch in the event the FFL goes out of business, whichever event comes first.

Because of the nature of Form 4473, it is a Tax Record and all protections (under current law) apply. Up until a FFL goes out of business, these forms are his property and the dealer does not have to allow any access to these records by anyone other than the ATF.

States like CA have a separate form (DROS - Dealers Record Of Sale), which may contain the firearms information and are presentable to the local police, but not the 4473 itself.

Quite frankly, FFL's are under a legal quagmire. Should they show the 4473's to anyone (other than the ATF) without a Federal warrant or subpoena, they are in violation of Federal Tax Law. Yet if they refuse Law Enforcement access, they come under suspicion of the local and/or Federal LE.

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To sum it up then. While there may be a State or Local form of registration, there is no Federal registration, even though the 4473 might be viewed as a de facto means of registration.

Wyoredman, I agree. We have many threads started by and never returned to by the individual OP's. Some are worthwhile, while many are not.

The degree of misinformation contained in this thread (by purported gun enthusiasts, no less!) demands an accounting.
 
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