what is it with Remingtons?
- Thread starter Rifleman1776
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The Remington trigger used prior to 2007 is far different from any other trigger on any other gun design. It is overly complex and prone to failure. Read this. It is one of the better explainations.
http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf
I'm not a Remington hater. I have several, but I know what can happen with them. The odds of it happening are rare. Most folks can own a rifle for a lifetime and never see a problem. Especially with guns made after 1982. Most of the issues happen with older guns. Mine is a 1974 rifle. Even though I've personally seen it happen, I wouldn't let that stop me from buying a Remington if they were making something I wanted. They are not currently however.
Remington claims, truthfully I believe, that they have never had a gun malfunction unless it had been tampered with or unless it were dirty. There are 2 problems with that. #1, it is impossible to inspect a Remington trigger, let alone clean it. All those tiny, complex parts with close tolerences are fully enclosed.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...JAxULPeBI2I9QStsIHoAw&ved=0CGUQ9QEwCg&dur=234
http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/?action=view¤t=003-2.jpg
As opposed to other guns open designs which can be inspected and cleaned.
http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/?action=view¤t=006-1.jpg
The other problem is the trigger connector. A good diagram is in the above article. A TINY bit of debris, something no larger than a single grain of unburned powder that gets in between the connector and the actual trigger results in the trigger already being pulled. The guns safety is the only thing holding back the firing pin. When the owner releases the safety the gun could fire instantly, or several seconds later. If you have a round chambered, and the safety off it could fire at any time, even if you are not touching the gun.
This is the reason Remington changed their safety design in 1982. On older guns the safety locked the bolt down. You had to move the safety to the fire position in order to get a chambered round out. On newer guns you can open the bolt and remove a chambered round with the gun on safe. Remington knew very well there was potential for serious problems. This does not address the issue, but does make it far less likely for a gun to discharge.
It is almost impossible to duplicate because as soon as that tiny spec of debris falls out, often from the recoil of the shot, the problem goes away and will often never happen again.
While Remington blames the owners for not keeping their guns clean, they design a complex fully enclosed trigger that is impossible to clean. Something as small as a single grain of powder could make the gun dangerous, while any other gun would still function with a handful of mud in the trigger mechanism. The new 2007 trigger does away with the connector. Just as Mike Walker strongly urged Remongton to do back in the 40's.
http://www.rifflawfirm.com/areas/pdf/remington4.pdf
I'm not a Remington hater. I have several, but I know what can happen with them. The odds of it happening are rare. Most folks can own a rifle for a lifetime and never see a problem. Especially with guns made after 1982. Most of the issues happen with older guns. Mine is a 1974 rifle. Even though I've personally seen it happen, I wouldn't let that stop me from buying a Remington if they were making something I wanted. They are not currently however.
Remington claims, truthfully I believe, that they have never had a gun malfunction unless it had been tampered with or unless it were dirty. There are 2 problems with that. #1, it is impossible to inspect a Remington trigger, let alone clean it. All those tiny, complex parts with close tolerences are fully enclosed.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...JAxULPeBI2I9QStsIHoAw&ved=0CGUQ9QEwCg&dur=234
http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/?action=view¤t=003-2.jpg
As opposed to other guns open designs which can be inspected and cleaned.
http://s1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/?action=view¤t=006-1.jpg
The other problem is the trigger connector. A good diagram is in the above article. A TINY bit of debris, something no larger than a single grain of unburned powder that gets in between the connector and the actual trigger results in the trigger already being pulled. The guns safety is the only thing holding back the firing pin. When the owner releases the safety the gun could fire instantly, or several seconds later. If you have a round chambered, and the safety off it could fire at any time, even if you are not touching the gun.
This is the reason Remington changed their safety design in 1982. On older guns the safety locked the bolt down. You had to move the safety to the fire position in order to get a chambered round out. On newer guns you can open the bolt and remove a chambered round with the gun on safe. Remington knew very well there was potential for serious problems. This does not address the issue, but does make it far less likely for a gun to discharge.
It is almost impossible to duplicate because as soon as that tiny spec of debris falls out, often from the recoil of the shot, the problem goes away and will often never happen again.
While Remington blames the owners for not keeping their guns clean, they design a complex fully enclosed trigger that is impossible to clean. Something as small as a single grain of powder could make the gun dangerous, while any other gun would still function with a handful of mud in the trigger mechanism. The new 2007 trigger does away with the connector. Just as Mike Walker strongly urged Remongton to do back in the 40's.
4runnerman
New member
I am most definetly not a remmy guy. Savage all the way, But i do know lots of people that are remmy guys. I have never seen one go off by mistake either. Im with the others here,,Im going with a big BS on this one
allaroundhunter
New member
When Remington kept getting reports of this happening, they offered to take a look at the guns and tried to mimic the malfunction that caused the supposed AD. Hardly any of the guns that were claimed to have problems were actually sent in, and of those that were, not a single one could be made to discharge without the trigger being pulled. There was video evidence of some of the tests, and you can watch some of them. Some users claimed that closing the bolt too hard caused an AD, but when a rifle with that "defect" was sent in, the bolt was rammed home over and over and nothing happened. While AD's do happen, they are not as widespread as many will have you believe.
I fully believe that JMR40 has problems with his, but if I was him, I would at least call Remington to give them a chance to fix it (on their dime).
That being said, I absolutely love my Remington 700. For a long range target gun, it is hard to beat. Now, don't take me for a fan boy, I also enjoy my Savage, and it is my big game and hog gun.
Sent from my HTC One X
I fully believe that JMR40 has problems with his, but if I was him, I would at least call Remington to give them a chance to fix it (on their dime).
That being said, I absolutely love my Remington 700. For a long range target gun, it is hard to beat. Now, don't take me for a fan boy, I also enjoy my Savage, and it is my big game and hog gun.
Sent from my HTC One X
accidents happen, equipment fails, welcome to the real world. I have seen a few oops happen, the men say my bad and dont let it happen again. The rest say it was the guns fault and bash the manufacturer or some other excuse. Yes there have been unintended discharges but they are exteremly rare with the major manufacturers and unmodified firearms. The press seems to feed off of this sort of thing and hypes the crap out of it. I have made a few mistakes in my life but I blame nothing and no one but myself.
Excerpt:
So let me get this straight: Some people are really bent because Remington didn't recall 2 million rifles so they could find the ~20,000 that may be susceptible to going off when the trigger is pulled after the rifle is not put on safe. "Between "safe" and "fire" positions" is not on safe.
I also recall from the video, they guy who is came up with the dirty trigger theory has never been able to get a Remington 700 to go off in the conditions he describes. You know, the guy who makes half of his income from testifying against gun companies.
I've got numerous firearms and NONE of them can be set off by placing them on "Safe", pulling the trigger, then moving the safety lever to "FIRE"
That to me would indicate a faulty design.
Remington is the only MFR that I've run across this particular problem with...
That being said, the Marlin X-7 series is less expensive, Sub-MOA from the box, and hasn't got any dangerous issues...
Heck, I'd even go with Savage or a Japanese Weatherby before I grabbed a Remmy 7-series
That to me would indicate a faulty design.
Remington is the only MFR that I've run across this particular problem with...
That being said, the Marlin X-7 series is less expensive, Sub-MOA from the box, and hasn't got any dangerous issues...
Heck, I'd even go with Savage or a Japanese Weatherby before I grabbed a Remmy 7-series
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/10/21/my-take-on-remington-under-fire/
I knew a Remington field rep years ago that quit Remington in the 1970's over the Rem. 700 trigger problems not being properly addressed; he started his own gun shop business. It's also why he used a Win. 70 action to shoot matches.
As usual, when something goes bad with anything, there'll be countless numbers of people using the same "thing" without incident. A 1/10th percent failure rate does not include every "thing" made. It means that 1 in 1,000 "things" will probably go bad. If there's 10,000 "things," 10 of them will go bad. If someones' use of "things" without problems gets them to belive it happened somewhere outside their environment is BS, their reasoning's flawed. Proof of this is they don't know their reasoning's flawed.
The issue at hand is, nobody knows when their "thing" may go bad when others with that "thing" have had it go bad; it might be tomorrow or 93 years from now or in 10 operations from now or maybe 7,654 times from now. So folks get to decide what their own margin of safety is and whether or not they'll accept the consequences.
Friend of mine had mentioned to his daughter and son in law they really should wear seatbelts in their car. Both told my friend the odds were in their favor of surviving. A few days later, they rolled their car; both were ejected. Only his daughter survived but stayed alive hospitalized for about a month before passing.
I knew a Remington field rep years ago that quit Remington in the 1970's over the Rem. 700 trigger problems not being properly addressed; he started his own gun shop business. It's also why he used a Win. 70 action to shoot matches.
As usual, when something goes bad with anything, there'll be countless numbers of people using the same "thing" without incident. A 1/10th percent failure rate does not include every "thing" made. It means that 1 in 1,000 "things" will probably go bad. If there's 10,000 "things," 10 of them will go bad. If someones' use of "things" without problems gets them to belive it happened somewhere outside their environment is BS, their reasoning's flawed. Proof of this is they don't know their reasoning's flawed.
The issue at hand is, nobody knows when their "thing" may go bad when others with that "thing" have had it go bad; it might be tomorrow or 93 years from now or in 10 operations from now or maybe 7,654 times from now. So folks get to decide what their own margin of safety is and whether or not they'll accept the consequences.
Friend of mine had mentioned to his daughter and son in law they really should wear seatbelts in their car. Both told my friend the odds were in their favor of surviving. A few days later, they rolled their car; both were ejected. Only his daughter survived but stayed alive hospitalized for about a month before passing.
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I don't like NBC, lawyers or antigun people but I believe Remington built a wonderful rifle that has a safety issue and should have fixed it. Any hunting rifle that is used only two weeks a year will last two, three maybe four hundred years. How many people are going to own this rifle and fully understand how the safety works? As the rifle ages, will there be an increase in these accidental discharges? Are there decades of complaints of Lee Enfields, Mosin's etc. discharging while bumping the bolt or taking off the safety?
Then you need to re-read the "smoking gun" posted by old roper above. The claim seems to be that "if you do something to you rifles it was not designed to do, pull the trigger with the safety positioned somewhere between "safe" and "fire", 1% of them might go off if you put it to fire"
And an ambulance-chaser-paid-expert-witness came up with the theory that if somehow dirt gets inside your trigger in exactly the right place, under the disconnector, it could go off, even though he has never actually got a Rem 700 to go off this way, or found one that conclusively had.
Unless there is more damning evidence that this or what was in he MSNBC piece, I am going to continue to call this BS.
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