What if a gang attacked me?
- Thread starter njtrigger
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a few thoughts
First off, Gangs overwhelmingly single out Members of rival gangs for this kind of attack. while i am sure that there are no doubt random attacks of this kind, they are much more rare than getting attacked by a single person. But to my main point.... in a situation like this, if you are in the center of a circle of people who had the ability of being corralled, the last thing i would want to do is flash a weapon, due to the fact that you will undoubtably end up on the receiving end of it. if you waited till that point to take your first action, then its too late. your first defense should be the situational awareness to have steered clear of that in the first place. these attacks do not happen to "random" people. they happen to people who advertise themselves as easy targets. Just my 2 cents.
First off, Gangs overwhelmingly single out Members of rival gangs for this kind of attack. while i am sure that there are no doubt random attacks of this kind, they are much more rare than getting attacked by a single person. But to my main point.... in a situation like this, if you are in the center of a circle of people who had the ability of being corralled, the last thing i would want to do is flash a weapon, due to the fact that you will undoubtably end up on the receiving end of it. if you waited till that point to take your first action, then its too late. your first defense should be the situational awareness to have steered clear of that in the first place. these attacks do not happen to "random" people. they happen to people who advertise themselves as easy targets. Just my 2 cents.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Well said, Dilligaf. I agree with the entire post. They are also cowards because instead of working hard and studying themselves up to a comfortable living, they choose the quick way of relieving other people of their hard-earned money. Simple cowardly trash.
The Tourist
Moderator
The mistake here is the assumption that if there is one man by himself, he must be the victim. If he engages a group, then the group must be the aggressors.
Not true.
I have often cited the newspaper story about three jackers who tried to steal a man's car. The owner of the car pulled out his firearm and killed one of his attackers.
For the rest of this article, the newspaper referred to the dead jacker as "the victim."
He is not the victim. He's the attacker, and as an attacker, he lost.
The victim does not cease being the victim just because he won.
Now, let me put a face on this. I don't care how many members of a bike club are sitting quietly having a cool drink if the townie starts the ruckus.
I don't care if the odds are 50 to 1. If the townie threatens a member of this majority, the townie does not become the victim just because he gets stomped for being stupid.
Now, consider this. To the far political left, all of us who love firearms are inbred rednecks. Our character is impugned simply because the opposing side seeks to define us by an unjustified standard.
Same deal here. Get the back story. Do not assume that the lone guy is always the victim.
Frankly, if I was to pick the troublemaker out of a group before the fight started, I would always look for the little Barney Fife guy with a chip on his shoulder. Those little guys are the start of more fights than any group of lounging bikers.
Not true.
I have often cited the newspaper story about three jackers who tried to steal a man's car. The owner of the car pulled out his firearm and killed one of his attackers.
For the rest of this article, the newspaper referred to the dead jacker as "the victim."
He is not the victim. He's the attacker, and as an attacker, he lost.
The victim does not cease being the victim just because he won.
Now, let me put a face on this. I don't care how many members of a bike club are sitting quietly having a cool drink if the townie starts the ruckus.
I don't care if the odds are 50 to 1. If the townie threatens a member of this majority, the townie does not become the victim just because he gets stomped for being stupid.
Now, consider this. To the far political left, all of us who love firearms are inbred rednecks. Our character is impugned simply because the opposing side seeks to define us by an unjustified standard.
Same deal here. Get the back story. Do not assume that the lone guy is always the victim.
Frankly, if I was to pick the troublemaker out of a group before the fight started, I would always look for the little Barney Fife guy with a chip on his shoulder. Those little guys are the start of more fights than any group of lounging bikers.
sw_florida
Moderator
People who engage in multiple aggressor attacks are cowards when on their own. Their degenerated wish, as a group, to attack randomly selected people isn't smart, it's animalistic and as such is met with contempt by the majority, including the newspress writers. One on one they can't make it. Sure, they may have the muscle, but the brains is lacking, and if the vicitim is armed they need to be 6 to even the odds. ****ing apes.
The Tourist
Moderator
sw_florida said:
To that I will agree.
The problem is that lots of people do not know the back story and assume the little guy is always the victim.
Tourist,
Your point is well taken. Frankly, Two very good freinds I grew up with belong to a local biker's club; (name not noted; privacy). They raised more money for my family when my son died (we were young and just starting out - money was tight) than all other donations combined. I personally don't even understand why you relate bikers to this group. These guys are more than capable of doing things themselves. Kick over my freind Teddy's bike, and it's not a group you're going to deal with, it's Teddy.
That being said, the picture I'm drawing is of a gang of punks with black fingernail polish and pierced eyebrows (maybe just my area of the country). A "Townie" as you refer to, is usually dealt with by being stuffed in a trash can, They're not woth the trouble. Listen to me.. I'm all grown up and talking like this...
I now have a CWP. Those days are over and done with. This thread relates to the admittedly slight chance that you find yourself chosen as a victim. Made even more slight by the fact that as a responsible gun carrier, you are wary enough to avoid the situation in the first place. The situation is 98% bogus to begin with, but worthy of debate in its intended manner.
As stated before, you are among friends. You like to stir the pot, but please don't add vinegar to it. Your side is viable, but it's not just a biker deal, and Townies are not worth our trouble. They're townies because they never got the self-woth to be anything else, so why bother with them?
Keep that bike polished, I lost the nerve for two wheels twenty years ago.
Your point is well taken. Frankly, Two very good freinds I grew up with belong to a local biker's club; (name not noted; privacy). They raised more money for my family when my son died (we were young and just starting out - money was tight) than all other donations combined. I personally don't even understand why you relate bikers to this group. These guys are more than capable of doing things themselves. Kick over my freind Teddy's bike, and it's not a group you're going to deal with, it's Teddy.
That being said, the picture I'm drawing is of a gang of punks with black fingernail polish and pierced eyebrows (maybe just my area of the country). A "Townie" as you refer to, is usually dealt with by being stuffed in a trash can, They're not woth the trouble. Listen to me.. I'm all grown up and talking like this...
I now have a CWP. Those days are over and done with. This thread relates to the admittedly slight chance that you find yourself chosen as a victim. Made even more slight by the fact that as a responsible gun carrier, you are wary enough to avoid the situation in the first place. The situation is 98% bogus to begin with, but worthy of debate in its intended manner.
As stated before, you are among friends. You like to stir the pot, but please don't add vinegar to it. Your side is viable, but it's not just a biker deal, and Townies are not worth our trouble. They're townies because they never got the self-woth to be anything else, so why bother with them?
Keep that bike polished, I lost the nerve for two wheels twenty years ago.
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The Tourist
Moderator
Tanzer said:
That's very simple to answer. It's the group I know.
I have never been a member of Congress, the mafia, Al Quaida, a sewing bee, NasCar, The Flying Elvi, or The Crest Kids.
But I am a club biker, and I've seen idiots.
As I mentioned in another thread, co-workers at the sporting goods store often debate ideas, like we do here. And frankly, if I had to use force against a mugger in this liberal city, my past would be a problem.
You can imagine the scenario. A mugger approaches me, I get ticked off, and I use strength and a very sharp knife to defend myself. I am now faced with a problem that Massad Ayoob has pointed out many times.
I must now "survive" in court. Weight lifter. Knife sharpener. Biker.
I've seen this same issue many times. You'll see six peaceful bikers at Joey's Anchor Inn or "The Wisco," enjoying a cold drink or a pool game. A drunken townie decides to discuss his displeasure.
The issue now becomes "six on one" and all of the problems of perception that concept brings.
Like I said, you have to consider the back story. You cannot just look at the basic situation, and reach a snap decision about a gang attack.
lanlan2255@msn.com
Inactive
Avoid that situation...but, expect the unexpected.
Slug with everything you have, the throat, the temple on the side of the head. Kick with all your might the knees, between the legs, stomach...
Normally if you put one or two down, the rest will run..hopefully
If it is your life, do not hold anything back.
It is all a painful hassle, especially if you could have avoided the whole thing somehow.
Slug with everything you have, the throat, the temple on the side of the head. Kick with all your might the knees, between the legs, stomach...
Normally if you put one or two down, the rest will run..hopefully
If it is your life, do not hold anything back.
It is all a painful hassle, especially if you could have avoided the whole thing somehow.
Mark Milton
Moderator
The late David Arnold was rather fond of Colt .357 wheelguns.
He was also a policeman in Africa in the 60s and 70s.
He always said blow the head off the first agressor and the rest tend to scatter...
He was also a policeman in Africa in the 60s and 70s.
He always said blow the head off the first agressor and the rest tend to scatter...
The Tourist
Moderator
Tanzer said:
Yes, it's true.
This big old bad biker is afraid of heights.
I get a little woozy on a tall step ladder. Since we have vaulted ceilings in several rooms of my home, I had to buy one of those long collapsing bulb changers to replace lights.
sw_florida
Moderator
The Tourist didn't understand my post above, but I'm sure the rest of you did.
Michael Anthony
New member
Double Naught Spy
New member
Oh that's right, McTony, we are all Hollywood Ninjas.
It's real easy to say "avoid those situations".
Let me give you a situation that actually happened to me, just earlier today. Tell me what you would have done.
I had a package to ship via UPS. I was returning one of my pistols to the manufacturer for warranty work. I checked the UPS website and decided that to avoid any hassles, I would go directly to a UPS shipping center. I've heard many stories of people who tried to ship firearms at a "UPS Store" or "Authorized Shipping Center" and ended up having to go directly to a UPS center/hub.
As I approached the door, I noticed a sign on the door that said something like "No Weapons / No Firearms Allowed". I returned to my car and dropped my carry weapon into the range bag in my trunk, and returned to the customer center with my package.
When I entered the customer center, it appeared to be empty - that is, no one was working at the counter, and an open door behind the counter lead to the rear where I assumed someone would be coming out to the counter soon.
A sign instructed me to "enter your information into this terminal and print your label here before taking your package to the counter" or something to that effect, so I decided to go ahead and do that before attempting to contact one of the employees for assistance.
As I was entering the information, and still no employees visible, four young males, very rough looking, suddenly entered from outside. Here I was - trapped with them - they were directly between me and the door - and unarmed due to the company policy of posting their premises.
I wanted to appear calm, and kept entering my information while trying to keep an eye on them with my peripheral vision - not being too obvious, that is. They stayed together as a group, just inside the door, and appeared to be just talking and cutting up among themselves. This made me very nervous - they had no packages to ship, and did not appear to have a purpose to be there. They made no attempt to approach the counter or do anything to get attention from employees who might be in earshot beyond the open door.
After a moment or two, a male UPS employee entered the room from the back, and asked the young men if he could help them. One of them muttered a question, something like "Is Kim working? I need to see Kim for a minute." and were told no one by that name was working. They turned and filed out.
If they had attacked me as a group, my only hope - other than desperation attempts at hand-to-hand combat - would be that the employees would have heard a ruckus and come to my aid. Otherwise, I would have been pretty much screwed...
So what do the "avoid those situations" folks have to say about this? To me, it illustrates that we can't always avoid "those situations". Who would have known that a trip to a UPS shipping center could have possibly been a high-risk venture?
More important: what should I have done, differently? or to protect myself?
Let me give you a situation that actually happened to me, just earlier today. Tell me what you would have done.
I had a package to ship via UPS. I was returning one of my pistols to the manufacturer for warranty work. I checked the UPS website and decided that to avoid any hassles, I would go directly to a UPS shipping center. I've heard many stories of people who tried to ship firearms at a "UPS Store" or "Authorized Shipping Center" and ended up having to go directly to a UPS center/hub.
As I approached the door, I noticed a sign on the door that said something like "No Weapons / No Firearms Allowed". I returned to my car and dropped my carry weapon into the range bag in my trunk, and returned to the customer center with my package.
When I entered the customer center, it appeared to be empty - that is, no one was working at the counter, and an open door behind the counter lead to the rear where I assumed someone would be coming out to the counter soon.
A sign instructed me to "enter your information into this terminal and print your label here before taking your package to the counter" or something to that effect, so I decided to go ahead and do that before attempting to contact one of the employees for assistance.
As I was entering the information, and still no employees visible, four young males, very rough looking, suddenly entered from outside. Here I was - trapped with them - they were directly between me and the door - and unarmed due to the company policy of posting their premises.
I wanted to appear calm, and kept entering my information while trying to keep an eye on them with my peripheral vision - not being too obvious, that is. They stayed together as a group, just inside the door, and appeared to be just talking and cutting up among themselves. This made me very nervous - they had no packages to ship, and did not appear to have a purpose to be there. They made no attempt to approach the counter or do anything to get attention from employees who might be in earshot beyond the open door.
After a moment or two, a male UPS employee entered the room from the back, and asked the young men if he could help them. One of them muttered a question, something like "Is Kim working? I need to see Kim for a minute." and were told no one by that name was working. They turned and filed out.
If they had attacked me as a group, my only hope - other than desperation attempts at hand-to-hand combat - would be that the employees would have heard a ruckus and come to my aid. Otherwise, I would have been pretty much screwed...
So what do the "avoid those situations" folks have to say about this? To me, it illustrates that we can't always avoid "those situations". Who would have known that a trip to a UPS shipping center could have possibly been a high-risk venture?
More important: what should I have done, differently? or to protect myself?
Jay1958, please tell me if I missed something in your story that would make anything that these 4 men did seem at all threatning. lets recap... they came into a buisness during normal, operating hours. they stood away from you, idd not approach, or for that matter, do anything physical to imply that there was a threat. they were, as you say, "talking and Cutting up among themselves" . again, still nothing even remotely threatning. i am sorry, but i can't see what about these men was do disarming to you. Explain, please.
sw_florida
Moderator
Jay1958, interesting story. From this we learnt to screw those 'no guns' signs, as long as it's not the real post office or a sheriff's office. The four didn't seem to have any business there and if the vibes you felt were unpleasant, I trust you. It's those situations which evolve into attacks. Next time, keep your gun on you. The detectors don't go off. I'll keep your story in mind. Ah, and your question. The answer would have been to keep the gun on you, and not let them encircle you.
SgtDemeo and DoItRight,
You're right, they did absolutely NOTHING that was OVERTLY threatening.
Can you seriously tell me that you never perceive threats based on age, gender, clothing, behavior, demeanor, "gut instinct"?
Me personally, I may be a victim of false thinking and stereotyping, but when I am in a situation where I am unarmed and alone, my internal radar goes on much higher alert if I am placed in a situation where retreat/escape is blocked or at best, difficult, if not unlikely, and four young males who are unkempt, wearing clothing and generally behaving in ways that are generally associated with (insert your choice of: bikers, gangs, drug culture, skinheads, punk, gangbanger, etc), who are present inside a business, with no apparent reason to be there (not shipping anything, nor picking anything up, nor even making an attempt to speak to an employee or "fellow customer") than if four female senior citizens, dressed and behaving in ways that lead me to believe they might be part of of some garden club or civic or religious group, had me 'cornered' in the same situation...!
"Profiling" may not be politically correct, or even illegal if done by government agencies, but if individual citizens who may be potential victims don't do a certain amount of 'profiling' as part of their ongoing risk assessment, then IMO they are probably at greater risk for that decision.
Not to say that it isn't POSSIBLE that an 80-year-old grandmother, driving a Mercedes and wearing expensive jewelry and expensive designer clothing might not approach you without warning and kill you at the local QuikMart, but ignoring the clothing, age, gender, behavior, etc. of strangers you encounter may be done at your own risk.
These four young men appeared to me to be nervous, fidgety, restless, speaking in somewhat hushed tones, laughing nervously at times... it really appeared to me that they might be considering robbing me and the cash register at the counter - and even now I'm not really convinced that it wasn't own their mind and for some reason they decided against it. I'm not at all convinced they actually knew anyone who works there - that itself may well have been a ruse to 'explain' their presence. The employee at the counter didn't say "They're not here right now", he said "There's no one by that name working here."
I would have done absolutely nothing today any differently if I had been well armed than I did unarmed. But I still think this may have been a high-risk situation that the potential perpetrators walked away from, for whatever reason. Thank God!
sgtdemeo wrote:
"Jay1958, please tell me if I missed something in your story that would make anything that these 4 men did seem at all threatning. lets recap... they came into a buisness during normal, operating hours. they stood away from you, idd not approach, or for that matter, do anything physical to imply that there was a threat. they were, as you say, "talking and Cutting up among themselves" . again, still nothing even remotely threatning. i am sorry, but i can't see what about these men was do disarming to you. Explain, please."
You're right, they did absolutely NOTHING that was OVERTLY threatening.
Can you seriously tell me that you never perceive threats based on age, gender, clothing, behavior, demeanor, "gut instinct"?
Me personally, I may be a victim of false thinking and stereotyping, but when I am in a situation where I am unarmed and alone, my internal radar goes on much higher alert if I am placed in a situation where retreat/escape is blocked or at best, difficult, if not unlikely, and four young males who are unkempt, wearing clothing and generally behaving in ways that are generally associated with (insert your choice of: bikers, gangs, drug culture, skinheads, punk, gangbanger, etc), who are present inside a business, with no apparent reason to be there (not shipping anything, nor picking anything up, nor even making an attempt to speak to an employee or "fellow customer") than if four female senior citizens, dressed and behaving in ways that lead me to believe they might be part of of some garden club or civic or religious group, had me 'cornered' in the same situation...!
"Profiling" may not be politically correct, or even illegal if done by government agencies, but if individual citizens who may be potential victims don't do a certain amount of 'profiling' as part of their ongoing risk assessment, then IMO they are probably at greater risk for that decision.
Not to say that it isn't POSSIBLE that an 80-year-old grandmother, driving a Mercedes and wearing expensive jewelry and expensive designer clothing might not approach you without warning and kill you at the local QuikMart, but ignoring the clothing, age, gender, behavior, etc. of strangers you encounter may be done at your own risk.
These four young men appeared to me to be nervous, fidgety, restless, speaking in somewhat hushed tones, laughing nervously at times... it really appeared to me that they might be considering robbing me and the cash register at the counter - and even now I'm not really convinced that it wasn't own their mind and for some reason they decided against it. I'm not at all convinced they actually knew anyone who works there - that itself may well have been a ruse to 'explain' their presence. The employee at the counter didn't say "They're not here right now", he said "There's no one by that name working here."
I would have done absolutely nothing today any differently if I had been well armed than I did unarmed. But I still think this may have been a high-risk situation that the potential perpetrators walked away from, for whatever reason. Thank God!
sgtdemeo wrote:
"Jay1958, please tell me if I missed something in your story that would make anything that these 4 men did seem at all threatning. lets recap... they came into a buisness during normal, operating hours. they stood away from you, idd not approach, or for that matter, do anything physical to imply that there was a threat. they were, as you say, "talking and Cutting up among themselves" . again, still nothing even remotely threatning. i am sorry, but i can't see what about these men was do disarming to you. Explain, please."
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