What has happened to us???

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jgcoastie

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I was talking with my uncle the other day and something just kept sticking in my head... Maybe I'm crazy, decide for yourselves, the following is a paraphrase of how the conversation went. it's kinda long, but I need to vent.

-What are ya'll up to?

Not much, just got back from helping Terry sight in his new elk rifle.

-Oh yeah, what did he get?

A Rem 700, .338 Ultra Mag

-What in the hell does he need that thing for?

For elk huntin of course!

-What's wrong with a .30/06?

It ain't got enough a** left in it at 600yds to drop an elk.

-Why in the hell is he plannin on shootin an elk at 600yds

B/c sometimes you just can't get closer.

-And? Ain't no sense in trying to shoot something that d**n far away...

Well if it comes down to taking the shot and letting the elk of a lifetime walk, you take the shot.

-Like hell you do! You let him walk, just like ya'll raised me to do since I was a little kid. Respect the game, respect your limitations, and only take ethical shots. Since when did a 600yd shot become ethical?

Well I don't know, that's just they way it is. Last year, Ronny had to take a 775yd shot on a bull elk and made it with his .338 Ultra Mag, that's why Terry got him one.

-I don't understand... You're telling me that he had to take a shot from nearly a half mile away? He couldn't walk his a** over a little closer? If I can't kill it with my .30/06 within 350yds, I won't shoot. And I've been huntin with that gun for ten years now. Ya'll are gonna be taking these ultra mags out to Colorado next month thinkin you know them good enough to take 1/2 mile, ethical shots on elk? Ya'll are crazy. Call me back when ya'll get your heads out of your hind-ends. We used to be real hunters, now ya'll are trying to be 1/2 mile hillbilly elk snipers... If ya'll want to shoot stuff at 700 yards, go to the dad-gum range and put holes in paper, at least you won't be wounding animals that you're likely to never find again. *Click*

Am I completely wrong for thinking this way? I can't see an ethical hunter that I've hunted with all my life trying to call this hunting.. It just seems kind of wrong...

Thanks for the venting session.
 
I agree with ya. Too many hunters I see are betting on a larger/faster cartridge to make up for poor shot placement or thier inability or unwillingness to stalk the game a little and close the range. I want clean, ethical kills, and shooting an elk with any cartridge at that distance just dosen't seem right to me. And, yes, I know their are cartridges and shooters out there who can make those shots on targets. But, when the result of a muffed shot is a wound animal that will take to an hour just to get to the point where you wounded before you can start tracking it, just goes against what I feel is right, and gives hunters a black eye.
 
A lot of folks don't like to be told they aren't hunting or shooting right,and I can understand that.He was probably excited/impressed by the rifle,and you rained on his parade.Human nature.
Having said that,I agree with you.There is far more to long range shooting than buying equiptment.Not many folks would get the time in shooting to become proficient at 700 plus yard shooting with a new rifle.
There are folks that get the practice and experience to do exceptional shooting,but IMO,there is a stage of long range shooting where we understand the limitations.
I have access to a 4 section ranch in Co,and I can st up and shoot at 700,or 1000,or 1200 yds.On one hand,its not that big of a deal to hit an inanimate target at 1000 yds,if you have a few rounds to correct for mirage and wind.

But,it is a bit different to get a first round hit.

What range did they sight in for? 100? 200? Or did they shoot at 700?Charts are helpful,but ....

Did they shoot bagged on a bench,or prone or sitting?

I watched a DVD of folks hunting CO ,and the "outfitter" had his clients shooting across canyons at 500-700 yds and these folks were poor shots.These elk were being hit in the legs,guts,hindquarters,and our "hero" hunters were shooting 6 0r 8 times to ruin one to death,and somehow,they were strange enough to be proud of what they did.It was sickening.

I would think they would be embarrassed and ashamed.

If a man tells me he can whack prairie dogs at 500 yds,I have no problem.
But,OP,I'm with you.Treat game with respect.An 06 and 350 yds is the words of a mature,experienced hunter who knows.You have my respect for what you say.
An elk deserves better tha "poke and hope"
 
I also factor in meat freshness. 700 yards across a colorado mountain valley will take a long time to...
1) walk to
2) find
3) field dress
4) haul back to camp
5) butcher
I like em' still pliable when I reach them, not in full rigor...:D
Brent
 
Seems to me that there are two groups of these long-distance deer/elk shooters.

The first group gets some high-power wonder gun. And a laser range finder. And, maybe a wind gauge. They study the charts on trajectory and wind drift. They practice on paper at Ma Bell distances. They get pretty good at it. Dunno if it's the first try, but finally they have photos or video of a hunt where a one-shot kill is made way, way, way Out There. Makes a great magazine article, or even something for a TV hunting show.

Then we have the second group. They see what these guys can do or have done, but don't realize that there may well have been some chopped-up elk before everything looked good in the pictures. They buy the gun a week or two before the season opens. They sail off to play Mighty Nimrod. Odds are, they wind up with spooked elk, educated elk, or chopped-up elk.

What we gripe about here, I think, is this second group. About all we can do is not be like them. Getting all upset over it is a waste of psychic energy. Just teach your kid the right way--"right" having to do with gun and skill level. Learn/teach the limits; stay within them.
 
No one wants to "hunt" anymore....

you just sit down with the wonder gun and wait.
A still hunter will slowly work his way around the woods and will KNOW more of the "lay of the land" and where game trails run.

I'm in Washington from Michigan and use a .308 but have nagging doubt about using my handloads on Elk. I did get a 7mmMag and I going to take a 400+ shot?
NO!

Have a laser renger-finder, but I use it for telling me what my limits are.

Sighting in is @ 200yds for both .308 & 7mm.

use to do sight-in @ club in Michigan, everyone wanted 100yds, I placed an 2nd target @200, once I got the shooters on @100 (off bags). Had them try the 200 target and they couldn't believe the drop! Some actually resight (few) the rest didn't care.
 
I to shoot a 7mm mag and also make my limit at 400 yards . I use a 300 yard zero and that keeps the bullet 6 low at 400. Beyound that it's fall'n to the ground. Don't want bad bullet placement to screw up a good hunt. To hard to tell if something beyound 400yards is worth kill'n or not. A big elk or deer 200 yards down hill means along night of backpack'n so keep them close or easy for sure. Never did understand hunters leave'n good meat behind.
 
Here is a video of some hunters who set up their rifles on the top of a ridge overlooking a couple of canyons, and then managed to use their calling skills to call in an Elk to within 834 yards.

Checkout the shot here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCyT...BAB4AED0&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=19


Here is another shorter Elk shot at 752 yards, also taken from the rim of a canyon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAdPY39Ja1c


Finally, here is the longest Elk shot of them all, at 925 yards!!! Check it out here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4o6n6rRlQs



-
 
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I own two hunting rifles. Remington 700 ADL's in .243 Win and .30-06. I figure there isn't anything in North America I couldn't kill with one or the other, properly loaded, if I have any skill in the woods at all.

I've seen more deer wounded and lost to "magnum" calibers wielded by sub-standard hunters. "That's all I have to say about that........."
 
I agree with you

I actually work with someone who prefers to go bow hunting, even though he also goes during gun season. He says the challenge is greater and feels like he can be more proud of getting a buck with a good rack with a bow than a rifle.

I do not hunt, I am not a nature person. I would not hunt with such high powered weapons if I did. The thrill of the hunt does not involve just the kill, it is the entire process. I believe hunters, like the one I work with, actually get more pleasure from the ones that get away than someone with a high powered rifle gets from the kill.
 
It's the modern "I want it now" attitude.

No discipline, no effort, no pain, no failure, no work, no knowledge.


Get a super wonder extra magnum, go sit where you can see a mile, shoot until you kill one, call it a successful hunt and then tell everyone that the only reason they don't do it is because they're not good enough to shoot that far.... then make and sell a video showing how "everyone" can do it, all whilst paying no never mind to the fact that "everyone" does not WANT to do it.



However, so far as the actual conversation.... it went that way because you crapped on his sidewalk. No sense in busting someone's balloon when you know it's not going to do any good. I mean, what's he going to say? "Yeah, I guess your right, I'll take this rifle back to the store and trade it for an -06..."
Not likely.
 
What has happened to us???
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Near as I can figure, people have been pushing the limits of contemporary ballistic technology since man learned that tasty critters can be killed with flying objects. I'm not saying that there aren't unethical long range flock shooters and gut blasters out there because we all know that there are plenty of em.
However, if a hunter dedicates himself to the art of long range shooting I see no problem. This means that he spends lots of time working up the perfect load for his highly accurate rifle/scope combination. He then spends even more time shooting that load/rifle combination under field conditions so that he has a supreme understanding of his personal limits and stays within those limits.
I limit myself to 350 yds with my 30-06 because it is a lightweight job with a relatively low power scope. The 350 yard drop is 15" using 180 gr. Swift Scirocco II bullets (BC of .52) driven at a modest velocity of 2694 fps (average) by 52 grains of H4350 touched off by a CCI BR-2 primer. The forementioned components are held together with a case that is fire formed to that particular rifle and prepared very carefully etc. etc.
My .338 RUM is a work in progress; once I have it dialed in just right I'll prolly end up with a personal limit of about 500 yds, but it will be my personal limit and nobody else will have any say in the matter.
I limit myself to 20 yards or so with my longbow because any farther would be unethical for me, I think I could forgive Howard Hill for shooting a bit farther with his.
 
So let him have fun with the gun he wants. If the guy practices with his mag and shoots it well, I have no problem with it. To each his own. He may be hunting in an area where you have to take long shots, and if he wants more power, well, more power to him. I wouldn't worry so much about what some guy uses to hunt elk.

What has happened to us? Maybe we worry to much about what other people are doing. ;)
 
I do agree that higher BC good hunting bullets and high performance cartridges,better scopes and laser rangefinders,etc make many things possible.I have a Leica rangefinder,and a wind guage,and Sierra's ballistic computer program,and a chronograph.

I actually built a longish range elk rifle (600yd)starting with the 200 gr 30 cal accubond bullet.In the computer,allowing for altitude,I matched the bullet @2900 fps to the Leupold B+C reticle.300 yd zero,and it hits the reticle marks to 600 yds.At 700 yds,it still hits like a 30-40 krag@100 yds.
It's a 30-338,I blueprinted a comercial HVA action and put a 26 in Lilja bbl on it.I put it in a Hitec Specialties 20 oz stock,but used stee-bed and pillars to bed it,free floated.It has a Canjar trigger and a Leupold 3.5-10 .40mm obj with the B=C reticle.My calculations worked out,and actually shooting at targets at 400,500,and 600 yds,it is on.The wind ladder is good for a 12 mph crosswind

My other long range rifle is a Win M-70 laredo,like a sendero rem.
HS precision stock,aluminum bedding,Nightforce 20 minute angle mounts,and a 30mm tube 4.5 -14 Leupold long range side focus M-whatever with a mil-dot

I chronographed it at the muzzle,then again at a lasered 300m.I zeroed it perfectly at 300m,then backed up to 760 meters and zeroed again,and recorded the clicks.I sent all my data to Kenton industries,and they made me a custom knob.I just dial the range to 1400 meters.

I'm not in the same league with the guys who shoot F-class,etc,

but,I do have some understanding about shooting a ways off.

I suppose it comes down to hustling an 8 inch pumpkin out as far as you think you ought to shoot,and if that is 700 yds,fine.hustle back to the firing line,put 3 rounds in your rifle.Use whatever you will have with you in the field hunting,and shoot 3 rounds.If you hit the pumpkin twice,I'm convinced.

For fun,at daybreak,when all is cool,sandbag a riflescope to crosshairs on target at 600 yds.Wait till the sun is higher,and the air is warm.Now,look through the scope.What happened to the elevation? 2 or 3 feet? interesting.

Speaking of elevation,if you sight in at 3000 feet and elk hunt at 8000 feetand shoot at 700 yds,unless you know the effect,you'll hit backstrap or?

We have increased ou ability to hit at longer ranges,and maybe 350 yds is conservative.

I hope you verify your ability.
 
Old dinosaur here and I grew up when most had a 30-30, 30-06 or 270 and the thutty thutty was the most seen in the woods back home. I love shooting long distance and have the guns for it but that's on paper or heaven forbid self defense. If I can't kill something within 200 yards with my 308 I don't need to be shooting at it and that includes moose and elk. Would I like a 338, you betcha, and a 416 Remington and a 450 Lott and a........well I want egg in my beer to but I don't need them.
 
okay i can see both sides here.

i do believe in "hunting" and have been doing so for 30 years. not that long but long enuff and have taken more animals i would guess than the average person my age...we used to do deprevation "shoot" 20 to 30 animals a day. and i think hunting is an evolution of sorts for an individual.

after alot of game under my belt i decided i wanted to really hunt and get close to an animal...so i put down the rifles and picked up a bow...been throwing feathers for about 12 years now and this year decided that i was going to hunt again...but now for different reasons...dad and i used to hunt together and hes been gone for about 7 years now...so its time for me to remember all the things he taught me....

so now after all these years i decided i am going to hunt alot and hunt hard... built a couple of guns capable of 6-800yrd shots... i want to take an antelope past 6oo. its just a challenge thing for me...

isnt THAT what hunting is...a CHALLENGE... it is certainly not for the need to eat anymore.

just an observation. and i agree too many guys go buy a kimber rifle that has a cute little certified sub moa target with it and think "i can do that" RIIIIGHT sur ya can big guy...

i would put money on the fact that 9 out of 10 shooters are not capable of sub MOA no matter the wepon they choose. real world conditions of coarse.

i shoot quite a bit and even i struggle with the wind and staying MOA or better with hand built weapons.

IF you are capable of consistently ringing an 8 inch gong at 4-800yrds after climbing up to 7k feet of elevation while your heart beats from the lack of oxygen and your hands are shaking because your brain is deprived of same oxygen...then by all means take the shot...IF NOT don't pull that trigger!
 
so now after all these years i decided i am going to hunt alot and hunt hard... built a couple of guns capable of 6-800yrd shots... i want to take an antelope past 6oo. its just a challenge thing for me...
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The problem is that having a gun capable of 6-800yrd shots is the easy part. Anyone with a bank account can buy such a rifle. The skill and discipline to make accurate real world shots at unknown ranges that far out can't be bought. It doesn't matter how capable the rifle is, if you are off by 50 yards on the range call, you will be off by a couple feet. If you get the wind wrong, you could be off by another couple feet.

To quote Inspector Callahan, "A man's got to know his limitations"

IF you are capable of consistently ringing an 8 inch gong at 4-800yrds after climbing up to 7k feet of elevation while your heart beats from the lack of oxygen and your hands are shaking because your brain is deprived of same oxygen...then by all means take the shot...IF NOT don't pull that trigger!
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Exactly.
 
If a man wants to try and kill an Elk or whatever at 800 yards it's none of my business.

I have spent several years trying and succeeding a few times in getting within 40 yards of a bull for a bow shot. I'll bet you that no matter who you are it would be a bigger rush.
 
Owee

A 140gr Berger in a 6.5-284 @3100fps, zeroed for 500 yds will be travelling 1836 at 900 yds. At 5000 ft elevation with a 5mph cross wind, the bullet will move 29 inches! Oh, and 110 inches elevation needed. Not for me. Ballistics from Barnes Ballistic Calculator.
 
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