What has happened to us???

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Serious hunters, as opposed to lead-flingers, don't "practice on elk at 900 yards". There are many, many rounds of practice on paper at even longer ranges before ever trying such a shot at any game animal.

We're always going to have that percentage of lead-flingers, whatever that percentage may be. But the serious long-range shooters are few and far between--whether in hunting or in target competition.

IOW, don't let the Internet exaggerate the imagined problem.
 
you don't need the skill of 1000 yard killing
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And some will say we don't need to hunt meat as we have cows to eat and others will say we do not need the right to shoot guns at all
Brent
 
I dunno, I guess I could stalk that animal for 600 yards as he was walking away from me, or I could walk 600 to a dead one. Any way you go its going to take some skill. Different kind of skill, but skill just the same.
 
If it wasnt for laser range finders Id say many of thosr 600, 500, 400, 300 yd and shorter shots are more in the 135 to 165 yard shots.
 
A group of us take hunting trips out of state to Wyoming or Colorado depending on the year. We were proud of our selves for our "long range shooting ability". We knew antelope would sometimes require long shots so we practiced until we were proficient out to about 500 yards. I have killed antelope (Ranged with my Leica) out to 475yds.

Then we met the Pen. State guys when we were hunting in Colorado. They killed a Buck at 850 yds and a Cow at 1200. We were amazed. We sat with them on more than one occasion talking about their tactics. Long range hunting requires it's own set of skills. If you are like these guys you knew exactly where you were shooting at that range. Not everyone who takes long shots posses the skills or knowledge like these guys.

I think its kind of funny to hear someone comment that you don't need a .338, that a 30/06 is big enough. Well why do you need a 30/06 or even a bow? Use a spear or better yet a rock. Technology has progressed passed the stone ages. In 30 years I'll bet someone will ask 'why do you need .339 eclectic super short sub mag? a .338 is big enough. Things change and along with that, Rifles, scopes, range finders, binocs, powder, bullets it only gets better. We have more deer now than ever before and maybe more Elk.
If someone wants to take a leagal weapon to hunt with then go for it.
If they posses the skills to shoot out to 900 yards then go for it. Some people are not physically able to crawl or walk for hours after a deer but want to shoot one. Some rifle hunters think archery hunting is not ethical (My Dad).

It's fairly easy to get close to Elk during Archery season, no so in the high country during Rifle season.
 
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If they posses the skills to shoot out to 900 yards then go for it
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The problem with that is that I simply do not believe that "any" hunter can consistently hit a deer or even elk in the vitals, first shot, every time at 900 yards under highly variable field conditions. And you are not talking to someone here that is unskilled in the field of shooting rifles.

At 900 yards it's not just a matter of being a "good shot". A steady aim and a good trigger finger are just the start of making shots that far. So much for just "possessing the skills" as you put it. A gentle breeze can drift a bullet an amazing distance at 900 yards. How exactly can you tell what the wind is doing 700 yards out from your position? How can you tell if it's blowing consistently across the entire 900 yard stretch in order to properly calculate windage adjustments? Hell at 900 yards atmospheric conditions like humidity come into play.

Since these things can't be known exactly under field conditions what these people end up doing is "guessing". Granted with some people it's a sort of educated guess but a guess just the same. And if they guess right or the animal stands there until they finally walk a lethal round into them then great. They make sure the whole world hears about it so they can get the rep of being "Johnny Rambo" "Sniper Dude" whoooaaaaa!!! Course when they guess wrong and hit him in the @$$; or blow a leg off; or blow the tip of his nose off; or blow his lower jaw off; well, they don't ever mention that. That would hurt the rep of "Johnny Rambo" "Sniper Dude"!!!! Think about it. Have you ever heard anyone come online and admit to a 800 or 900 yard shot that went bad? If online reports are any indication the kill ratio at that distance is 100%. LOL! But don't you believe it.

And before you say it yes our military snipers do occasionally make shots that far. However the average shot made by miltary snipers in modern war is 400 yards or less. They also miss those real long shots sometimes too. And the past accomplishments of many snipers have gotten better and better with each retelling of their story if you know what I mean.

Besides, the goal of a military sniper is to neutralize an enemy target. If his bullet hits and enemy soldier in the leg at 1000 yards, then great. If he blows his arm off, great. A lethal torso hit, so much the better. But our goal when shooting at game animals is not to just render them combat ineffective. It's to hit the vitals (a much smaller target) with a clean ethical shot causing a rapid death. Never confuse the two.
 
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The problem with that is that I simply do not believe that "any" hunter can consistently hit a deer or even elk in the vitals, first shot, every time at 900 yards under highly variable field conditions. And you are not talking to someone here that is unskilled in the field of shooting rifles.
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So America should scrap the more risky sniper program?

I think that since risk of capture or injury to the hunter is far less than that of a sniper, GO FOR IT!!! It is the hunters responsibility to make a clean kill or track the wounded...

To each his own... If many of ya'll knew how many shots I passed on as I wasn't 100% I could drop the deer with severe vitals damage, many would look back on some of their shots with a tinge of guilt I bet.

Do I care? NOPE!!! My opinion on hunting is my own.

If the same of ya'll knew how many shots I passed on because the deer was further from the truck than I care to drag/carry, You may call me LAZY. Again, Do I care? Not in the least as I am the one who has to tote the bugger...

And then there is all the shots I passed on as the game was alongside the edge of a swamp or thicket and I was sure if I wounded the animal it would surely seek the harsher protection and that also makes for a sucky search/tote...

But if I could have a great LD shooter coach me thru my 1,500 yard shot at a deer across a plains grass covered meadow... I would do it in a heart beat and let the sherpas go get the thing for me.

Brent
 
So America should scrap the more risky sniper program?
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Well, that doesn't fit well with the rest of your post. In fact it implies you did not read all of Todd1700's post. Todd1700 gave reasons why a sniper wounding a target might be acceptable in the larger scheme of things, i.e., within his mission objectives, while it is never acceptable for a game hunter.
 
Todd1700 gave reasons why a sniper wounding a target might be acceptable in the larger scheme of things, i.e., within his mission objectives, while it is never acceptable for a game hunter
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A hunter who shoots and leaves the wounded to die a slow death or one who kills one dead and doesn't do so to haul it out are both sorry excuses for oxygen loss.

But a wounded animal is fully acceptable to me so long as I was trying to kill it and quickly tracking it down to kill it off.

brent
 
So America should scrap the more risky sniper program?
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How you got that from my post is a mystery to me but to answer your question, no, that's not what I was saying at all.

My point was that every time a debate comes up about shooting deer or elk at these extreme ranges someone will pop up and mention how our military snipers sometimes kill enemy soldiers at those ranges. As if that somehow makes shooting at deer that far off a good idea. I merely tried to point out that wounding an enemy soldier with a slightly errant shot (as is highly possible at such ranges) is not a negative outcome like wounding and losing a game animal would be.

I don't think anyone taking 900 plus yard shots has any respect for the game animal they are hunting. Too great a risk of a wounded and lost animal for an ethical hunter. Course there are plenty out there that don't give a rip how many they wound and lose as long as they get to play sniper. Selfish and unethical.

Wanna play Rambo? Get on a range and shoot at paper. Wanna be a hunter? Work on getting closer before you shoot.

I also don't buy the claim that people "have" to take shots from these ranges either. If other people kill elk, deer and antelope with a bow at ranges under 70 yards, I'd be pretty ashamed as a hunter to admit that I couldn't get within 900 yards of one.
 
I see. Since I can't imagine how anybody could be a better shot with better equipment, or understand why they would want to make such a shot rather than get closer, anybody who does must be a Rambo.
 
Long Range Prep is critical

I've never made a truly long range rifle shot, though I've made a couple of pistol shots that would cause folks to question my honesty.

My father though is the best at preparation. He drew a cow elk tag in Nevada and really took his time to get ready. He had been a handgun hunter, but decided the range might be difficult and wanted a rifle. He's cheap, so I recommended a good savage or ruger in 7mm rem mag from Walmart. After much deliberation and input from his buddies on the range moving ever further and closer to 800yds being the norm (his buddies can exagerate with the best), he purchased a Rem 700 300 Ultra, a target barrel, laminated stock, target trigger. Worked up his own loads for 4 months and was set for the hunt.

Opening morning, he came out of his camper and shot his cow at 50 feet. Hit it in the neck just below the head, and it fell in a deep ditch. Rope around the head to drag it out resulted in loss of said head and several interesting photos.

He did have his 9mm in his back pocket, just in case. I'm glad he was able to make this record long shot (ok, the only Elk he's ever taken) and was fully prepared to double the range if needed.

As for me, a scoped pistol is good for up to 200yds on a small deer (TC in 30 herret) but that sure feels like a long one to this kid. Beyond that, I'm looking for a different shot
 
I actually have a place to go shoot at those ranges.One spot I shoot lasers 1090 yds.I have another nice 700 yd spot.

With a few sighters,a good spotter ,once on the target,shooting a smaller than paper plate group is usually not that big of a big deal.

That first round hit,cold,way out yonder is a whole nother challenge.

Within an arbitrary maybe 600 yds,with a laser,good rifle,etc things are a bit more predictable with technology,maybe,depending on what kind of air you are looking through.But just plain mirage can affect point of impact 3 feet @ 600 yds.(See "Position Rifle Shooting",the book)

I'm guessing "who has to pay the price"
?" matters a lot.When we hunt pheasants,sometimes there is an agreed upon penalty for anyone who shoots a hen by mistake.Maybe $20.

Using the same idea,suppose just for fun,it was agreed upon,in your group,if you miss clean,it is $1 a yard in range,and if you hit,wound and recover,it is $2 a yard,and if you hit and wound and lose an animal,it is $5 a yard.

So,wound and lose an animal at 900 yds,pay $4500 to the DOW or a charity.

Then,it is not just the animal that pays for the stunt.

I'll take the bet on a 300 yd shot,but I'll slow down on the longer ones.

I'm just using this as an example for a way to think about it.

Now,one day,way out there,I saw a herd of antelope.The 4.5-16 Bushnell Elite 4000 I had on the Laredo that day had a 5 MOA duplex it fit a buck antelope ,lenghth of body,which I guessed@42 inches.So,range approx 850 yds.There was a small round rock near this antelope.The antelope moved on.I was not hunting antelope.Just to show my buddy something,I dialed in the correction on the turrets,and fired one round at the rock.Smack.Hit.My buddy was amazed.This was roughly a 10 inch rock.The rock does not suffer if I miss.Its all fun.I do have confidence,ability,experience,equiptment,etc.

But I limit my shots to pretty much sure things.Certainly keeping the crosshairs still enough on the target is one part of it.But there is much more.

Seldom will you see no wind and no mirage in antelope country.
 
Just because you lack the skill for a long range shot doesn't mean no one has it. Give me a break. I know people that miss a 100 yard shot, that doesn't mean thay can't shoot. If you are saying that you shouldn't shoot at something unless you are 100% sure you are going to kill it then you must not have much experience. Also the comment about better equipment not being a factor is also mistaken. I can guarantee I can shoot more acurately at 100 yrds with a scoped rifle than with iron sights or a bow. I guess you have some sort of standard as to how far you think I can shoot?

Too many people have the mentality of "If I can't do it then nobody should"
 
Phoneguy:
You do whatever makes you happy.

I have a hangun I can shoot sitting down,resting over my knee and consistently hit stationary clay pigeons at 200 yds,and I have been shooting antelope for 43 years.I am not talking about 100 yds.

I suggest if you think the shooting that takes place over 600 yds is all about spending money at Sportsmans,it is you that lack experience.

No,I am not world class,and yes,many people can outshoot me.

I will stand by the statement that at over 600 yd ranges trajectories begin to drop very fast and the efects of wind and mirage are less predictable,and while extreme skill will produce impressive results,
all this is in addition to a perfect hold and squeeze.The other thing is,real animals,insead of imaginary ones,move every few seconds,unexpectedly.A 1.5 second flight time is enough time for a step or turn after the trigger breaks.

To get a first round,cold hit at 700,800,900 yds with confidence,not poke and hope,is a limited club.

Now,you suggest that if I am uncomfortable making poke and hope shots that wound it makes me inexperienced???

When I was an inexperienced teen ager with a 7 mag and a 3-9 scope,I thought I could hit anything,as a result,I blew a leg in half on an antelope that got away,45 years ago.That is the last,the one,the only that got away.I do remember how unacceptable it felt.It was bad,but I GREW UP SOME.

If you want to shoot ballons at 1000 yds,count me in.But when I pop cap on a big game animal,I have a very high degree of confidence,or I do not shoot.
 
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"But when I pop cap on a big game animal,I have a very high degree of confidence,or I do not shoot."

Excellent summation.
 
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