What happens if you forget your stamp?

I'll bet a doughnut on next National Doughnut Day, that 'available' to the ATF does NOT mean 'It's at the house', or 'I forgot to make the copies I was going to make, it's in the deposit box at the bank', or something like that.

You'll get the same response anyone would get for a concealed pistol while the permit is at home in their other pants.
 
I would bet you would get treated decent by the ATF. When I was assigned to the regional drug task force, I did a lot of joint investigations with the ATF. I got to know many of their agents. All the agents I met were good people. They had a lot of common sense. They wanted to arrest criminals. They had absolutely NO desire to aggravate or annoy law abiding citizens. They were ,surprisingly, pretty laid back people. In my dealings with them, their focus was guns used in the drug trade. They did not bother legal gun owners. There is a stigma that the ATF are a bunch of SS agents trying to disarm the citizens of the United States. The truth is that they stay pretty focused on their duty which is arresting criminals.
 
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That has been my experience as well.
Personally, i would have a copy. I have never been asked for it. Technically, you should have something to show that you legally possess the controlled item.
I carried all the company/employee stuff to take a full auto shotgun to a recon match in another state. A state that doesnt allow machinegun ownership. Nobody asked for a thing.
 
I always leave my original paperwork in the safe and when I shoot my NFA stuff, I just bring a copy of the stamped form 1 or 4 with me. I can't cite any law on this, but this is what I've been told and what I do.
 
I had a local police officer ask to see my stamp a while back. I did not have a copy on me but I was able to call the BATFE (the place you call to get a pending date) and they confirmed to me over the speaker phone that the fire arm was registered to me (the officer had my photo ID), she also stated over the speaker phone that I did not have to show paperwork to any one other than the BATFE or one of the BATFEs agents. The police officer was very polite after that.

I do try to carry a copy of the stamp but I admit I forget now and then. I need to just keep the copy's in my range bag.
 
Sometimes you can get in trouble with local law even when you don't have an NFA firearm. An acquaintance had an M1A and decided to play pretend by putting on one of those phony selector switches. A cop who was a VN vet saw the gun and went ballistic. The owner was not arrested, but he spent several hours on a Sunday afternoon "assisting the police" while they got their FI guy off the golf course to confirm that the rifle was not full auto.

The owner took the dummy selector off.

(Sure, I know "he shudda done this" or "he cudda said that", but when surrounded by real cops who might not have a sense of humor, most folks prefer not to tell them off and rant about "rights".)

Jim
 
...she also stated over the speaker phone that I did not have to show paperwork to any one other than the BATFE or one of the BATFEs agents.
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You don't have to, but you might find yourself detained by a local/state LEO until they get things straightened out.

In TX, your NFA paperwork doesn't just prove you aren't violating federal law, it also proves you aren't violating state law which outlaws NFA items if the person doesn't have the proper NFA paperwork.
 
I've actually never seen police or dnr at the ranges. They train at a gun club closer to town. I don't own an NFA item but I do have an AK pistol. I didn't think of it when I bought it but I hope I never run into a cop who doesn't know it's legal without a stamp.
If I had an NFA item, why not leave a copy in your vehicle?
The ATF may say you don't need to produce paperwork to local police but it's a safe bet if you say you don't have to prove anything to a cop, while they think you're committing a felony, you'll find yourself wearing handcuffs.
I've actually been questioned about the car I was in, that I own, was stolen. Because your majority of car theives steal beat up cars and do a hit and run just to go to the grocery store.
Getting off topic but I learned this over time. If you ever go to your car and there is a police car blocking it, it's safe to assume they aren't just being inconsiderate and it's a coincidence. No, they are there to block your car in. And when they approach you don't think they are wanting your help if you've seen someone wondering around. No, they are there looking for you assuming you are a criminal. Even when you haven't commited a crime, for that matter the crime didn't even happen. So when you say I have a PDF file on my phone I'm sure you can expect a nice long conversation with plenty of threats.
 
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I had a police officer ask to see my paperwork on a suppressor I had on my AR15. I had a shrunken copy in my pocket. I informed the officer that I did not have to show him my paper work and that I only had to show it to a member of the ATF.

I did get a pat down but it was not thorough enough to find the old folded piece of paper. I was in a bad mood at the time. Fortunately I am old and mostly retired so spending the day at the police station was just "fun" for me. I was hopping they would bring an agent down but they just called the ATF and got the information after a couple hours.

Was I with in the law? Yes. Was I a Jerk? Yes but I know I educated multiple police officers that day.

My wife chewed me out and said I should of just shown the police but I believe in my right to privacy and would gladly go threw it all again if I means I get to keep a little of my privacy. Ill take my privacy and freedom over convenience any day.
 
No, but as Blackbook pointed out, some states criminalize the owning of NFA weapons. In those states, it is an affirmative defense against prosecution to produce the paperwork. In short, you are presumed to be breaking the law until you can prove you're not. Several states are like this.
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And, as usual. it is overlooked that police have no legal right to demand to see your NFA paperwork since it is a tax document.
 
gyvel said:
And, as usual. it is overlooked that police have no legal right to demand to see your NFA paperwork since it is a tax document.
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That's very nice, but the fact is that possession of an NFA item is prima facie (on it's face) illegal. It becomes legal only if one has the proper paperwork, and so having the necessary paperwork is an affirmative defense.

As we've seen in this thread, if the NFA item has been properly registered but the person in possession doesn't have or produce the paperwork he is most likely to be detained while law enforcement can verify that his possession is lawful. The police aren't just going to let him go about his business.

If someone wants to challenge that sort of detention for an investigation as violating his Fourth Amendment rights, he's of course welcome to try. I don't think that a court will, however, be very receptive. See Embody v. Ward (Sixth Circuit, 11-5963, 2012).
 
".she also stated over the speaker phone that I did not have to show paperwork to any one other than the BATFE or one of the BATFEs agents." That is not quite what the regulation or the Forms say.

The actual wording is, "This approved application is the registrant's proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request." That is not the same as the aforementioned quote. It does not say no one else can ask or that only an ATF agent can ask.

There is also a little trap there. When you ask BATFE a question about the law, their reply is ONLY about federal law; they deliberately WILL NOT mention or discuss state or local law since they do not enforce those laws. If you assume that their reply covers state or local law and get in trouble, that is your problem, not theirs.

Jim
 
And, as usual. it is overlooked that police have no legal right to demand to see your NFA paperwork since it is a tax document.
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If you refuse to present your NFA paperwork in TX, you will eventually be convicted of a state felony for owning/possessing illegal weapons. Possessing a silencer or machinegun is a felony in TX if you can not/will not produce the proper NFA paperwork.
 
I did get a pat down but it was not thorough enough to find the old folded piece of paper
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That folded piece of paper was outside the scope of that search, which was most likely a search for weapons. He would have been outside his "legal limits" to remove and inspect the paper during the "pat down"
 
Pardon me for asking but doesn't a photocopy of an original Form 1 have all the authenticity as a photocopy of an original driver's license?

It's not certified, it's not stamped by a Notary Public, it's subject to being photo-manipulated (altered, forged, shrunken, enlarged, etc.)

Is it more of a courtesy to show an inquisitive officer of the law who probably never saw a real Form 1 ever before than any sort of 'proof'?
 
4thPoint said:
Pardon me for asking but doesn't a photocopy of an original Form 1 have all the authenticity as a photocopy of an original driver's license?...
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As a general matter of evidence law a photocopy can usually be accepted as evidence and as meaningful as an original. Sometimes that is not the case, e. g., a driver's license; but a copy at least includes information which would make it a relatively easy matter to verify its validity.

4thPoint said:
...It's not certified, it's not stamped by a Notary Public, it's subject to being photo-manipulated (altered, forged, shrunken, enlarged, etc.)...
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Certified by whom? A copy of an official document certified by a public official is required only for certain purposes, e. g., a copy of a birth certificate certified by the custodian of public records to get a passport.

Notaries don't just stamp things. They validate signatures and administer oaths.

If someone is going to forge a document, he might as well try to make it look like an original.
 
A cop who was a VN vet saw the gun and went ballistic. The owner was not arrested, but he spent several hours on a Sunday afternoon "assisting the police" while they got their FI guy off the golf course to confirm that the rifle was not full auto.

Cop stuck his snout where it didn't belong-should have it notched for his trouble.
 
Threads like this one depress me, too many folk just rolling over and letting their rights be trampled. :(

I'm an SOT, NONE of my NFA items even have "A tax stamp" to display even if I wanted to.
Sure they are all NFA registered, on F2's.
I do not take copies of my F2's to the range and know for a fact that most cops cannot even understand an F2 or F4 if it's show to them.
Since I may register several items at one time any F2 I have would only confuse the cop.
They would likely want to see the other items listed as well.
Strikes me as a warrant-less search, not going to cooperate with that.

The only cops asking to "See your paperwork" are clueless 'tards stepping on your rights to assert their authority and let you know who's the boss and that you are a mere peon.

The stamp IS a confidential tax document.
If your state law does not recognize this truth you need to work on getting that law changed.
 
The stamp IS a confidential tax document.
If your state law does not recognize this truth you need to work on getting that law changed.
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Confidential or not, in TX, if you don't/can't present the proper federal paperwork, you will be arrested and charged under state law for possessing an illegal silencer or illegal machinegun.

Actually, the last legislative session improved the law. Maybe next time around they can improve it a little more.

As the law currently stands, if you're not ok with the possibility of having to show your paperwork to state/local LE in TX then I guess the only alternative is to not possess machineguns or silencers in TX.
 
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