What Embarassment From This Administration Is Next????

Bigjack, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what false stories were planted.

As far as the HMMWVs go, there are multiple versions.

The original M998 is not, and was not designed to be, armored. We are using them with add on armor. The ones I had in Iraq had what was referred to as "Haji armor". This is locally procured steel plate replacing the doors and added to the rest of the vehicle. You can only do so much with it as it adds a lot of weight. Also being used are add-on armor kits. These are real armor, made by Armor Holdings, the same company that does the purpose built armored HMMWVs. These are tougher, but even heavier.

The M1151 is a heavier duty HMMWV that is meant to handle the additional weight of armor. It is built with some armor and designed to allow the add on stuff to be easily attached and removed. The add on kit is 1500-2000 pounds.

The 1114 is the purpose built "up-armored" HMMWV. This one is completely armored. A standard HWWMV weighs around 6000 pounds, this one weighs 12,000. Pretty tough, takes an RPG or 12.7mm to penetrate.
 
Pretty tough, takes an RPG or 12.7mm to penetrate.
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This is an important point. Even the most "up-armored" HMMWVs cannot take a rpg or large caliber hit. Only a tank can take that kind of punishment. In that case, a non-armored but fast and maneuverable vehicle can be superior to a heavy slow vehicle, if the armor won't stop an rpg anyway.
 
You're accusing the administration of allowing substandard items to be issued so that "big buisness" could make a profit. Prove it.
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no not that they "could" make a profit. They "did" make a profit and have filed for bankruptcy taking millions of dollars of taxpayers money. I havent seen anybody prosecuted for it yet????????????
hevent heard a word form W and Rummy about them being evil profiteers.
 
hevent heard a word form W and Rummy about them being evil profiteers.
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So what? Companies are in business to make money, nothing wrong with that. If there's something wrong with a product, there's a process in place to handle things like this, there's no reason why should they interfere in such a mundane and technical issue.
 
by Eghad:
Wonder which political party they contributed too?
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The information is not hard to find:
Federal Election Commission - search of individual contributions

DAVIS, RICHARD
CENTRAL LAKE, MI 49622
SECOND CHANCE BODY ARMOR

MCMANUS, MICHELLE A
CHALLENGER House Michigan 01 REP
10/31/1997 1000.00 98032664027
08/17/1998 1000.00 98033773315

ROGERS, MICHAEL J
INCUMBENT House Michigan 08 REP
04/24/2002 1000.00 22991929158
04/24/2002 1000.00 22991361085

ROSS, JOHN [is this the John Ross who wrote Unintended Consequences?]
CHALLENGER House Missouri 02 DEM
08/21/1998 1000.00 98033860763

SESSIONS, JEFFERSON B [Senate Armed Services Committee]
INCUMBENT Senate Alabama REP
05/29/2002 1000.00 22020382817

YOB, CHARLES W
CHALLENGER House Michigan 01 REP
04/18/2000 1000.00 20990166288
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evil profiteers.
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Nothing evil about making a profit; that's what drives capitalism.

In fact, that's why capitalism succeeds and socialism fails: capitalism rewards the winners and penalizes the losers. Socialism rewards the losers and penalizes the winners (by taxing the productive and redistributing the wealth to the nonproductive). You can't expect a system (socialism) to work when it promotes failure.
 
so its not wrong to make a profit when you know the product you are sending soldiers is defective even before its shipped out?

so profits are more important than soldiers lives?
 
The new IEDs in Iraq

The deadly munitions mark a steady improvement in the roadside bombs that debuted in 2003 in Iraq, often as simple as a single artillery shell wrapped with detonator cord linked to a battery.

The new bombs are a deadly marriage of stealthy camouflage, shaped explosives that propel metal projectiles through four inches of armor and infrared motion-detector triggers that can't be blocked by electronic jammers.

"It works like a burglar alarm, a beam that goes across a doorway. Once the beam is broken it triggers the bomb," said Amyas Godfrey, a former British Army intelligence officer who left Iraq in October 2004 after serving two tours.
 
so its not wrong to make a profit when you know the product you are sending soldiers is defective even before its shipped out?

so profits are more important than soldiers lives?
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Nobody said that; I was just saying that profit by itself is not evil.

As to the rest, if you gave any substantiation for those claims I missed it; sorry. I'm having too much fun kicking BJ's butt to read through all the posts. :D
 
I thought the purpose of a debate was to learn not kick butts?

I have no problem with profit. I do have a problem with profits when companies put profits ahead of safety and human lives.
 
I have no problem with someone having an opinion.

I have problems with someone having an opinion then beating me about the head and neck with it, and refusing to deliberate and prove point.

*that*, BIGJACK, is how someone earns the right to be called things I can't repeat here and have their other opinions forever tarnished, because nobody else will *listen* to you.
 
Not sure where you're getting your info on IEDs Eghad. The IEDs are getting deadlier but shaped charges and IR detectors, while used, are quite uncommon. They are getting deadlier mostly because they are making them bigger. They are also adding gasoline to make a fireball. This is a direct response to the fact that we are using more armored vehicles. This is what always happens. You do something, the enemy adjusts their TTP (tactics, techniques and procedures) and you then adjust yours. Then they adjust and so on and on and on.

Artillery shells are still the most common IED because they have large stockpiles aned they're easy to make. They don't "wrap them in det cord". They unscrew the fuse, pack the well with plastic explosive and a detonator then wire it to their device of choice, generally a remote of some kind, wireless doorbell, garage door opener, radio, cell phone, etc. Want a bigger boom, stack more shells together.

I know of 1 M1 tank taken out by an IED. This was done by digging under a road bed and laying several 100 lb bombs and other items. Something in the vicinity of 500 lbs of explosive.

Point being that generally there's nothing too sophisticated about it. Just a pile of something that blows up and a detontator. If that doesn't work, use a bigger pile.
 
The companies made a profit selling shoddy equipment to the military. Second Chance has gone bankrupt after taking millions of dollars in taxpayer money with it.
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Second Chance has declared bankruptcy and is being sued by the DOJ. What's your point? They don't make military body armor. Point Blank is the company that makes the Interceptor Body Armor used in Iraq.

Objection, relevance?
 
Silver Bullet, my butt would be sore from your kicks if I did not recognize you as one who takes statements, responds with unsubstantiated second hand qutations :eek: which are presented as gospel. But so far you are way off.:p
Half truths are no better than out right lies. Half truths like those coming from our gwb regardless group, on conditions in Iraq. example: Electricity is back on--don;t say after we blew um up and for only 3 or 4 hours aday, a gillion schools have been rebuilt and are being attended--don;t say schools that we blew up and on and on and on.
One would have to be pretty nieve to believe that a journalist who was on the take would not resort to streatching the truth or out right lying to increase that take. On going investigation will reveal the same.:D
 
unsubstantiated second hand qutations which are presented as gospel
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Sounds more like YOUR arguments BJ. Are you ever going to tell me what false stories were planted? And while your at it, show me which schools we blew up. You want to disagree with how the war's being run, fine, but if you want to be taken seriously try using facts you can back up.
 
THERE YOU GO AGAIN!:barf: NOt really a letter from anyone but a commentary from some nut, yet there is a lot of truth there. Truth hurts.
'THE FIRST CASUALTY WHEN WAR COMES IS TRUTH.-senator Hiram Johnson 1917:D
 
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