What does it mean when someone says "The cylinder has been turned?"

In terms of collector value. To some articulate collectors the slightest rub line will drop a revolvers worth from pristine to excellent even though no other signs of use were observed. Turned cylinder is simply a turned cylinder. The revolvers owner or whom ever turned the cylinder once or many times so to scribe the cylinders metal full cycle {usually seen.} Or from one chamber to the next is all it takes sometimes. How bad the scribe has to be to reduce the revolvers value. Not much to some collectors I have met.
 
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Maybe, but if the bolt is rising so soon as to make a full drag line from stop to stop all around the cylinder, then there's a problem... The only guns that I have with drag lines were my own fault.
That's exactly what I said

I was making a distinction between a bolt rising too soon, and a bolt rising way way too soon. I've seen the peen and small drag marks where a bolt rose too soon, but I've never seen a bolt rise so soon that it makes a continuous drag mark all around the cylinder.

Interesting. So it basically means there is a scratch line between the cylinders from where the hand (I think its called) pushes the cylinder along.

I don't think they refer to turn marks or wear on the hand / ratchet area. The drag marks referred to are probably from cylinder stop to cylinder stop on the outer face of the cylinder.
 
Here's another one of mine, I have quite a few around here, no turn lines. I
don't know where you fellers are comming up with all these turn lines. That was
a sign in my day of someone who doesen't know how to handle a gun.

a832e9de5ea804baa788c38c6b344147.jpg
 
Or, a line can come about because of a worn or broken part. Sometimes it happens to those that shoot thier guns. Some folks put a 1000+ rounds a month through their irons.

I don't see anything in the OPs post that has anything to do with a turn line! He plainly asks, about a turned cylinder!! It means exactly that, the cylinder has been turned! An unturned cylinder would be one that hadn't been turned since it left the factory. If there's a doubt of meaning, ask the person what they mean by an unturned cylinder. Sheesh!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
 
One thing I have come to accept since I started competitive black powder shooting is my guns are working tools. I take care of my guns. I appreciate them for their artistic styling and try to keep them looking good.

But at the same time, I use them and put thousands of rounds through them. They just aren't going to stay looking pristine.

Steve
 
"Mine are all shooters . I'm 72 and just from another era."

Well, I am ten years older and us folks who shot percussion revolvers in those olden days didn't give a darn about turn lines, the guns all had turn lines because they were all originals. There were no Italian repros to coddle and keep pristine and pretend they are something special. And the really old folks who shot those guns when they were new didn't care, either, as evidenced by the guns themselves.

Yes, you can be very careful and never leave a turn line. And so what?

Jim
 
kwhi43

Here's another one of mine, I have quite a few around here, no turn lines. I
don't know where you fellers are comming up with all these turn lines. That was a sign in my day of someone who doesen't know how to handle a gun.


Well, I'm a pretty accomplished pistol shooter and handle a sixer quite well. But I've seen pictures of your targets Sir.....and even at only 29 years of age, I know better than to think I can handle a pistol even half as well as you can :)...maybe someday I'll get there.
 
A properly fitted S&W DA revolver exhibits a "turn line" after a very few cycles of the cylinder. IT is actually a sign that the revolver is working properly, per its design.

The same turn line on a Colt means some kind of issue.

Different models, different results.
 
Turned

I have understood the term to mean that someone has taken the cylinder off the frame and put it on to a lathe and "turned" or machined it.
The British Webley revolver chambered for the .455 Webley cartridge is a case in point. A common (and unwise) alteration is to machine/turn the cylinder so that it will chamber .45 ACP.
Pete
 
When it comes to reproductions, they're reproductions and not museum pieces. Now, if I had something made by Wallace Gusler, Gary Brumfield, Mark Silver, Frank or Hershel House, Jack Brooks, John Bivens or any of the other famous makers, I'd shoot it but would spend extra time in preserving it afterward.
 
Howdy

Oh my goodness. First of all, the revolver in question by the OP probably has a 'turn line'. An unturned cylinder is just about impossible to have, since at the factory when they are being built the cylinder will be turned all throughout the assembly process, and again when it is being proofed. Even if somebody buys a revolver brand, spanky new and never fires it, the cylinder will have been turned at some point. This is a very common error in terminology.

Now lets talk about Turn Lines. Here are some photos that will help clarify the issue.

First off is a 2nd Gen Colt with a turn line. The arrow points to the turn line. Notice it runs through the center of the cylinder locking notches and their related lead ins. With all due respect to Jim K, who obviously knows a lot about revolvers, this turn line is the result of the gun not being operated properly. The only way to load a revolver like this is to put the hammer at the half cock position. With the hammer at the half cock position, the bolt (the part that locks the cylinder in battery) will have withdrawn into the frame, allowing the cylinder to rotate freely for loading and unloading. The bolt has been pulled down because when the hammer is pulled back, the cam on the hammer rotates up, and it engages the tail end of the bolt, rotating the rear of the bolt up and the business end of the bolt down. So far everything is fine, we can unload and reload the revolver, or charge a Cap & Ball and put caps on the nipples.

The natural tendency at this point is to simply lower the hammer from half cock so we can shoot the gun. This is a mistake. Lowering the hammer from half cock allows the bolt to rise again, and spring pressure keeps the bolt pressing against the cylinder. Any inadvertent subsequent rotation of the cylinder, by hand or by accident, allows the bolt to rub against the cylinder. Do it enough times and the bolt rubs a Turn Line against the cylinder.

The correct way to load a single action revolver with a Colt style lockwork is to pull the hammer all the way back to full cock after one is done loading, then carefully lower the hammer. Doing this allows the cam to complete its cycle against the bolt. The cam rises all the way and the tail of the bolt slips off the cam, popping the business end up against the cylinder. A properly timed revolver will allow the bolt to pop up against the cylinder in the lead in to the locking notch. As the hammer continues to be pulled all the way to full cock, the cylinder continues to rotate and the bolt rubs against the lead in until it pops up into the locking notch. Finally, lowering the hammer allows the springy tail of the bolt to bend as the cam passes it by, leaving the business end of the bolt up and keeping the cylinder locked in battery. A well used, properly timed single action revolver with a Colt style lockwork will exhibit a short rub line about halfway into the lead in extending to the locking notch. That is completely normal.

I will only say that I bought this particular Colt used, and the rub line and other marks on the cylinder occurred before I owned it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Let's leave the discussion about hammer down on an empty chamber for another time.

turnline2ndgenColt02witharrow_zps55182ffc.jpg




Here is a Ruger Blackhawk. Notice it has a Turn Line. A Turn Line such as this is completely normal on a Ruger. The lockwork of a New Model Blackhawk is completely different than the lockwork in a Colt. There is no half cock position to load from. Only full cock, or all the way down. Opening the loading gate pulls the bolt down into the frame, allowing the cylinder to turn for loading and unloading, closing the gate allows the bolt to press against the cylinder again. When we finish loading the Ruger, the cylinder will be out of battery. One of the chambers will be lined up with the loading gate and no chambers will be lined up with the bore. Rotating the cylinder, either by hand or by pulling back the hammer will allow the bolt to rub against the cylinder. Even if we carefully realign the cylinder with a chamber lined up with the bore before we close the loading gate, and I can assure you nobody does that, we will still get a Turn Line. That is because the timing is factory set on a Ruger to pop the bolt up early, about halfway between chambers, causing a Turn Line that runs from about halfway way between the chambers to the bolt stop, exactly as you see on my Black Hawk. That is the way they come from the factory. You could almost call a Turn Line a feature on a New Model Ruger.

turnlineBlackhawk02modified_zps7f09bddf.jpg




While we're on the subject, here is an old Three Screw Ruger Blackhawk with a pretty severe Turn Line. These guns had a lockwork very similar to a Colt. They loaded from half cock, and if you didn't pull the hammer back all the way and lower it after loading, you got a Turn Line just like this.

ThreeScrew357Magnumturnring_zps35cda5f5.jpg




Lastly, although it really does not belong in the Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting sub forum, lets look at a typical Smith and Wesson revolver to round out the discussion about Turn Rings. This 38 M&P was made in 1934. It has a fair amount of wear on it, including a very prominent Turn Ring. But it does not matter if it was made in 1905 or yesterday, all modern S&W revolvers will eventually get a turn line if they are shot at all. The lockwork inside one of these is radically different from any of the guns we have looked at so far. The bolt (Smith likes to call it the Cylinder Stop) is always being pushed up by its spring. The only time the bolt is withdrawn into the frame is as the the trigger rotates back, either in single action or double action, a nib at the front of the trigger pulls the bolt down. When the trigger rotates far enough, the nib lets go of the bolt and it pops up against the cylinder again. This happens long before the cylinder has rotated all the way for a new chamber to line up with the bore, and the bolt rubs against the cylinder for about half of the cycle. Completely normal, it is part of the design. Since it is a side swing cylinder, when the cylinder is swung out for loading the bolt is still in the up position. When the cylinder is closed again, it will be closed against the raised bolt, again completely normal, it is part of the design. I have heard tell of some who claim they carefully line up the cylinder when closing the gun so the bolt will pop into one of the locking notches. I don't know anyone who does that, I certainly don't, it is much, much less convenient than pulling the hammer back on a single action revolver. Even if one did this, the bolt will still pop up early every time the hammer is cocked or the trigger is pulled, and over time you will still get a Turn Line.

MampPturnline_zpsf556be07.jpg


Bottom line, I expect the replica Walker Colt in the OP's question has a Turn Line from not pulling the hammer back and lowering it from the half cock position. Does it hurt the value? No, it is only a reproduction and very few actually collect these revolvers and try to keep them pristine. If it were mine and I bought it new would it eventually get a Turn Line? No, because I would pull the hammer back and lower it on an empty nipple after loading. Do the originals have Turn Lines? Seeing as there were only 1100 Walkers ever made, and some of them blew up from the heavy powder load in the iron cylinders, and the rest have probably been heavily used in the 168 years since they were made, probably. Does a Turn Line affect the value of an original Walker? Not one bit. They are one of the rarest guns ever made. General overall condition will affect its value, but a Turn Line is a minor component of overall condition.
 
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Driftwood

That is simply the best and most complete explanation of how and why a revolver may acquire a turn line as well as an explanation of the different types of lockworks of various makes of revolvers. Nicely done!
 
"Oh no... my God it can't be!"

"IT"S A TURN LINE!!! RUUNNNNN!!!!" :D

Really gents, a turn line really amounts to not much on a revolver. If you shoot one, it's liable to happen, but that's okay because it's just a mark of character as revolvers are in fact meant for shootin', not jus' gawkin'!
 
Driftwood -

I was going to argue with you - my S&W Model 60-15 has no turn line after more than 4000 rounds that I've shot, plus an untold number before I bought it. But...I looked closely just to be sure, and by golly it has one - faint, but it's there. I'm embarrassed that I never noticed it before.

Gee - maybe it isn't such a big deal after all.

And, yes, thanks for the post and the examples.
 
My wife has a stainless ruger vaquero that has no turn line, and no black rings around the front of the cylinder chambers, and probably a 1000 rds through it cowboy action shooting.

But then, I re-timed it when I did the action job, and all rounds fired since factory test firing have been black powder, which doesn't leave those permanent black rings on the chamber mouths.
The one thing I hate about the Rugers, their abysmal timing.
 
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