You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
What Do You Expect The Need For Your Fighting Rifle To Be?
- Thread starter threegun
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Double Naught Spy
New member
In what order do you put the following attributes for your fighting rifle (most important first)?
amount of ammo that can be carried for it
stopping power
speed of followup shot
ability to penetrate cover
For me, this is for ranges out to no more than 100 yards, urban environment.
I would add to the criteria some additions.
ease of use (some rifles are not as ergonomic as others and hence are more efficient [slower] in bringing to bear and land shots on the target)
compact size (carbine, collapsible stock for easier storage and use in tight quarters)
As happens so often, if you would spend just a little time and money getting some training from professionals in the field you'd realize how silly so much of what you worry about really is. You keep trying to find a hardware solution to what is a software problem.
And as so often happens you assume that I have not trained with my rifle. You assume just because I want the best tool for the job, that I cannot make due with what I have available and thats just rediculous.
There is no professional training David that will allow you to shoot as fast and accurate a follow up shot with a 308 as a 223. Just as if your needs lean toward penetration no training will make a 223 punch holes like a 308.
The caliber doesn't determine your success.
It can limit your options though. The more limits the greater chance of getting hurt IMO.
You want something that will increase your chances a whole lot--get some tactical training behind you. Then you'll understand why these "small advantages' aren't advantages at all.
Have it already. I'll never understand how a "small advantage" isn't advantagous. I guess with that thinking a small disadvantage isn't a disadvantage at all either.
So you don't think the difference in penetration is worth the extra recoil and reduced ammo load?
Not really. I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration. But against the types of cover that could be encountered in a urban environment, I am more than satisfied with what the 223 brings to the fight..or, if you like, I am willing to deal with its limitations and adapt.
Unless you are defending against a comparably armed and well-coordinated mob (or even a smaller sized "gang"), the fire-power offered by the 223 is up to the task. I don't expect to reach through cars or cinder block walls to stop a threat on a regular basis. But if I am forced to do so, based on my own observations, I am more than confident that the 223 will be able to do it in a couple or three well placed shots.
For me, the M4-style carbine has proven itself as the best compromise between terminal ballistics and ease of employment. The carbine is as big as I want to get in terms a fighting rifle in the close quarters of a urban environment. The M1A/M-14 is a superb battle rifle, but it is just too big and heavy and wears me out. I dont want to unessasrily fatigue myself when I need to be shootin' and scootin' against a fast moving and street-savvy opponent. (Maybe I should work out some more?)
But like I said, that's me. Certainly, if penetration is king for you, the 7.62x51 will punch that ticket. I wouldn't mind if you showed up at my house to offer a hand in turning back the hordes.
Creature,
The M-4 in 223 is my current go to rifle if the poop ever hit the fan. I love it. Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?
I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration.
The M-4 in 223 is my current go to rifle if the poop ever hit the fan. I love it. Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?
Jermtheory
New member
Not really. I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration. But against the types of cover that could be encountered in a urban environment, I am more than satisfied with what the 223 brings to the fight..or, if you like, I am willing to deal with its limitations and adapt.
Unless you are defending against a comparably armed and well-coordinated mob (or even a smaller sized "gang"), the fire-power offered by the 223 is up to the task. I don't expect to reach through cars or cinder block walls to stop a threat on a regular basis. But if I am forced to do so, based on my own observations, I am more than confident that the 223 will be able to do it in a couple or three well placed shots.
For me, the M4-style carbine has proven itself as the best compromise between terminal ballistics and ease of employment. The carbine is as big as I want to get in terms a fighting rifle in the close quarters of a urban environment. The M1A/M-14 is a superb battle rifle, but it is just too big and heavy and wears me out. I dont want to unessasrily fatigue myself when I need to be shootin' and scootin' against a fast moving and street-savvy opponent. (Maybe I should work out some more?)
But like I said, that's me. Certainly, if penetration is king for you, the 7.62x51 will punch that ticket. I wouldn't mind if you showed up at my house to offer a hand in turning back the hordes.
^^^^ agreed.
Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?
its a trade off.
your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages.
a trade that i personally wouldnt make...but to each his own.
The Bishop
New member
For home defense - A shotgun
Are you planning on walking the streets during a riot or natural disaster ? If so, yea go with any rifle, pistol, or gun you can get your hands on.
However, for home defense, I would go with a pistol or 12 Ga.shotgun with 00buck.
The Bishop
Are you planning on walking the streets during a riot or natural disaster ? If so, yea go with any rifle, pistol, or gun you can get your hands on.
However, for home defense, I would go with a pistol or 12 Ga.shotgun with 00buck.
The Bishop
Deaf Smith
New member
It must load on Sunday and shoot all week. Be reliable enough to go through that whole week without a hickup. Shoots strait and hits hard as far as I can reliably hit. Light and short. And afford lots of practice (cause skill is number one in my book.)
Right now my two Bushie ARs fill the bill. Just spent this morining sighting in one (BUIS was on, but scope not) and it shoot wonderfully. The other one, with Ashly rear sight, was already dead on at 200 yards and has my 'no touchie' stamp on it, meaning it works right and leave it alone!
Sure there are others that will do the same. A good AK, good FAL (I'd like to get a DSA para model myself), SOCOM M1A, and others but the AR is what I have and it does quite fine.
See I don't split hairs and worry over charts and graphs that give one a .002 percent better this or better that. My Bushies are fine, just like alot of other good guns out there.
Right now my two Bushie ARs fill the bill. Just spent this morining sighting in one (BUIS was on, but scope not) and it shoot wonderfully. The other one, with Ashly rear sight, was already dead on at 200 yards and has my 'no touchie' stamp on it, meaning it works right and leave it alone!
Sure there are others that will do the same. A good AK, good FAL (I'd like to get a DSA para model myself), SOCOM M1A, and others but the AR is what I have and it does quite fine.
See I don't split hairs and worry over charts and graphs that give one a .002 percent better this or better that. My Bushies are fine, just like alot of other good guns out there.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Nope, never siad that. I said you need formal tactical training. That you consider the two the same is part of the problem, IMO.And as so often happens you assume that I have not trained with my rifle.
As we've discussed before, if you'd talk about what was said instead of making things up the discussion would go much smoother.You assume just because I want the best tool for the job, that I cannot make due with what I have available and thats just rediculous.
Again, the fact that you would discuss those in the same context as training indicates how much you need the training.There is no professional training David that will allow you to shoot as fast and accurate a follow up shot with a 308 as a 223. Just as if your needs lean toward penetration no training will make a 223 punch holes like a 308.
You need to make up your mind. The last discussion revolved around the fact that you had had no formal training and why you thought you didn't need any because you'd read some books and watched some videos.Have it already.
It changes your options. Whether that is a limit for you, well, you're the only one who can decide that.It can limit your options though.
As Jermtheory said, "...its a trade off. your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages."I'll never understand how a "small advantage" isn't advantagous.
See I don't split hairs and worry over charts and graphs that give one a .002 percent better this or better that.
I wish I could just relax, sit back, and not worry about it LOL. Not so much charts and graph as potential needs vs rifle/caliber attributes.
Nope, never said that. I said you need formal tactical training. That you consider the two the same is part of the problem, IMO.
Thank god its just your opinion. I was beginning to think that I can't do the very same things being taught in "formal training" since I learned them a different way than you.
You need to make up your mind. The last discussion revolved around the fact that you had had no formal training and why you thought you didn't need any because you'd read some books and watched some videos.
Didn't say formal training. As I have stated numerous times I use the same tactics as taught to you and others by the pros. I run the same drills. Only I had to do it myself. I'm quite positive that there isn't anything you can do that I haven't done or cannot do. You just paid a lot more and have a nice piece of paper to show for it. Are you better? We'll never know. My money is on me though.
your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages.
And the reason for my post. I'm looking for educated input to assist me with this very issue. Instead you give assumptions and sarcasm. I understand that you have been conditioned to make due with what you have and that the tool isn't the key but the training is........I agree with a twist......I want the tool that can excell in the most of my expected scenarios. Since I get to prepare and train in advance.
It changes your options. Whether that is a limit for you, well, you're the only one who can decide that.
Given my expected uses the 10/22 will limit the options of whoever selects it.
Hmmmm
Well, my current "battle rifle" is my Beretta CX4 Storm...in 9mm.
The way I look at it presently (and anyone is welcome to try and change my mind with some good advice) I am going primarily for defense and even a
9mm Carbine will convince people to keep their heads down. Should the worst happen (whatever the "worst" might be) I don't see myself sitting still for too long unless there is no other choice. My goal would be to get into a rural, less populated area (not hard in northern/western Maine) and finding a place for me and mine to camp out.
Since I travel a lot, I have one pistol/rifle for transit to home and another for moving from home to wherever.
To get home I have my Beretta Cougar 8040 and a Marlin 30-30 Lever action. Once I get home (after a quick trip to a secure location that is) I have my Glock 22 and some gear for wearing it as well as several Magazines to get to a safe place. As mentioned, my CX4 will be joining me as well.
WAP
Well, my current "battle rifle" is my Beretta CX4 Storm...in 9mm.
The way I look at it presently (and anyone is welcome to try and change my mind with some good advice) I am going primarily for defense and even a
9mm Carbine will convince people to keep their heads down. Should the worst happen (whatever the "worst" might be) I don't see myself sitting still for too long unless there is no other choice. My goal would be to get into a rural, less populated area (not hard in northern/western Maine) and finding a place for me and mine to camp out.
Since I travel a lot, I have one pistol/rifle for transit to home and another for moving from home to wherever.
To get home I have my Beretta Cougar 8040 and a Marlin 30-30 Lever action. Once I get home (after a quick trip to a secure location that is) I have my Glock 22 and some gear for wearing it as well as several Magazines to get to a safe place. As mentioned, my CX4 will be joining me as well.
WAP
The AR-15 (M4 variant) is a great weapon. Ammo is plentiful, rate of fire is good, ease of use, alot of accessories and spare parts, and is an easy rifle to maintain. The only drawbacks in my book to the round, is it certain conditions, and at distance, it can tend to be a bit under powered. Not a bad rifle to have in capable hands by any means.
I like the AK for the same reasons, plus it has more punch, and you can treat it like an ex-wife and it will still shoot. In a serious situation where weapon maintenance might not happen for extended periods of time, you can't go wrong with the AK. You can drop that baby in the swamp, drain the barrel and come out fighting. It can take real word abuses that would cause other rifles to malfunction.
As far as inside 50 yards or closer, if I had the choice I would definitely grab a "combat" shotgun. Nothing is more effective, or easier to use, especially in conditions where careful, scoped aiming may not be an option. The short barreled shotty is probably my first grab in home invasion situation. There are semi-auto "drum" fed models, short barreled, pistol gripped, and will hold a box of alternating slug, 00, or whatever you want to feed it. Hard to go wrong there.
I like the AK for the same reasons, plus it has more punch, and you can treat it like an ex-wife and it will still shoot. In a serious situation where weapon maintenance might not happen for extended periods of time, you can't go wrong with the AK. You can drop that baby in the swamp, drain the barrel and come out fighting. It can take real word abuses that would cause other rifles to malfunction.
As far as inside 50 yards or closer, if I had the choice I would definitely grab a "combat" shotgun. Nothing is more effective, or easier to use, especially in conditions where careful, scoped aiming may not be an option. The short barreled shotty is probably my first grab in home invasion situation. There are semi-auto "drum" fed models, short barreled, pistol gripped, and will hold a box of alternating slug, 00, or whatever you want to feed it. Hard to go wrong there.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.