In what order do you put the following attributes for your fighting rifle (most important first)?
As happens so often, if you would spend just a little time and money getting some training from professionals in the field you'd realize how silly so much of what you worry about really is. You keep trying to find a hardware solution to what is a software problem.
The caliber doesn't determine your success.
You want something that will increase your chances a whole lot--get some tactical training behind you. Then you'll understand why these "small advantages' aren't advantages at all.
So you don't think the difference in penetration is worth the extra recoil and reduced ammo load?
I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration.
Not really. I respect what your trying to achieve in regards to penetration. But against the types of cover that could be encountered in a urban environment, I am more than satisfied with what the 223 brings to the fight..or, if you like, I am willing to deal with its limitations and adapt.
Unless you are defending against a comparably armed and well-coordinated mob (or even a smaller sized "gang"), the fire-power offered by the 223 is up to the task. I don't expect to reach through cars or cinder block walls to stop a threat on a regular basis. But if I am forced to do so, based on my own observations, I am more than confident that the 223 will be able to do it in a couple or three well placed shots.
For me, the M4-style carbine has proven itself as the best compromise between terminal ballistics and ease of employment. The carbine is as big as I want to get in terms a fighting rifle in the close quarters of a urban environment. The M1A/M-14 is a superb battle rifle, but it is just too big and heavy and wears me out. I dont want to unessasrily fatigue myself when I need to be shootin' and scootin' against a fast moving and street-savvy opponent. (Maybe I should work out some more?)
But like I said, that's me. Certainly, if penetration is king for you, the 7.62x51 will punch that ticket. I wouldn't mind if you showed up at my house to offer a hand in turning back the hordes.
Still if another caliber could offer me even the smallest of advantage in even the rarest of occassions while still great for the majority of occassions.....why not?
Nope, never siad that. I said you need formal tactical training. That you consider the two the same is part of the problem, IMO.And as so often happens you assume that I have not trained with my rifle.
As we've discussed before, if you'd talk about what was said instead of making things up the discussion would go much smoother.You assume just because I want the best tool for the job, that I cannot make due with what I have available and thats just rediculous.
Again, the fact that you would discuss those in the same context as training indicates how much you need the training.There is no professional training David that will allow you to shoot as fast and accurate a follow up shot with a 308 as a 223. Just as if your needs lean toward penetration no training will make a 223 punch holes like a 308.
You need to make up your mind. The last discussion revolved around the fact that you had had no formal training and why you thought you didn't need any because you'd read some books and watched some videos.Have it already.
It changes your options. Whether that is a limit for you, well, you're the only one who can decide that.It can limit your options though.
As Jermtheory said, "...its a trade off. your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages."I'll never understand how a "small advantage" isn't advantagous.
See I don't split hairs and worry over charts and graphs that give one a .002 percent better this or better that.
Nope, never said that. I said you need formal tactical training. That you consider the two the same is part of the problem, IMO.
You need to make up your mind. The last discussion revolved around the fact that you had had no formal training and why you thought you didn't need any because you'd read some books and watched some videos.
your "smallest of advantage" comes with other disadvantages.
It changes your options. Whether that is a limit for you, well, you're the only one who can decide that.