David Armstrong
Moderator
Again, I don't think it matters. 223, 308, 303, 30-06, 30 carbine, 30/30, .22LR. This idea that the caliber is going to make much, if any, difference in the outcome of most situations is just silly.
What Do You Expect The Need For Your Fighting Rifle To Be?
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Microgunner
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I disagree
The Great Mahoo
New member
Micrgunner said:
I have the same gun and never had any problems with it. Not so much as a miss-feed in the ~5 years I've owned it. Of course, I rarely shoot it anymore, so next time I take it out it may very well fall apart just to spite me.
Having a 5.56 and various .30cal & 7.62 for high power
competition.
I prefer the power of the .30 cal, using POA/POI I know that an incapacitating hit occurred.
5.56 simply doesn't do it. If it all I have then it's going to be used.
Look at the different ammo now used, the 55gr original load (supposed to tear an arm off with a shoulder hit), the 69gr penetrator, the 75gr long range.
Look what happen in the "Blackhawk down situation, wrong ammo wasn't delivering the incapcitation, 7.62 shows up no problem.
I'll even take a 30/30 or a M1 Carbine.
competition.
I prefer the power of the .30 cal, using POA/POI I know that an incapacitating hit occurred.
5.56 simply doesn't do it. If it all I have then it's going to be used.
Look at the different ammo now used, the 55gr original load (supposed to tear an arm off with a shoulder hit), the 69gr penetrator, the 75gr long range.
Look what happen in the "Blackhawk down situation, wrong ammo wasn't delivering the incapcitation, 7.62 shows up no problem.
I'll even take a 30/30 or a M1 Carbine.
My first choice would be an AR-type carbine, because of ammo and parts availability and ergonomics. Even in a SHTF situation, I think most engagements will be at relatively close range.
Unfortunately, I live in Kalifornia, and can't own a real AR. Fortunately, I have one at work, and will probably be on duty in any extreme situation anyway.
I've got a CMP Garand and two cans of M2 ball: Good enough.
Unfortunately, I live in Kalifornia, and can't own a real AR. Fortunately, I have one at work, and will probably be on duty in any extreme situation anyway.
I've got a CMP Garand and two cans of M2 ball: Good enough.
it was a scary night...
property beside ours on the night of the king riots.
people were literally screaming out our names, calling threats across the fence.
the sherriffs department refused to come down there.
i roughly figured there were over a hundred of them, i saw guns in the crappy binocs i had, and later some folks shot guns into the air right at the property line.
i postitioned myself about two hundred feet from the property line, prone with a drop off behind me, with a 308 galil on a bipod. i only had three 25 round mags for it.
i had a clayco ak underfolder with five mags.
i had no pistol with me. at the house i had two repro 1858 remington 44 blackpowder pistols loaded as absolute last ditch.
my brother was about 75 feet behind me and to my right with my other AK.
my eleven year old nephew had a 1022 with a 25 rounder back at the house.
my mom had only an old webley pistol.
inside the house was an old model 12 with a broken extractor and a worn out ejector, but it had a round of number ones in the barrell. there were three 25's for the 1022 and some 10 rounders, there was an old springfield 22(that had been retired when it once went full auto shooting at a squirrel) loaded up. there was an old iver johnson 20 gauge with a load of buckshot in it. there was a garrett arms repro of an 1859 sharps cavalry carbine loaded with a 375 grain bullet in front of 60 grains of FF blackpowder.
the plan was for me to open up with the galil when they began crossing the fence, one mag then pull back halfway to the brother. my mom was to phone 911 when she heard the galil open up and tell em they better get something there cause is a gun battle going on now.
when i began the pull back he was to open up untill i began firing again in next position. leapfrog like that till...
third mag gone, drop the galil and we would go to single aimed(as good as we could aim in the dark) shots, holding our ground and moving up and down a shallow ditch, unless we were recieving lots of fire, in which case we would fall past an open area and i would go to block and the brother would get past me and circle to my left to try and establish enfilade on the attackers from a treeline there with big pines.
we had two pump shotguns and all the buckshot and slugs in the house in two bags positioned on the road after the wide spot. if we had to or one of us was hit the other was to get to the house and go through the crappy guns there and then...then...die i guess.
sounds crazy doesnt it?
it happened.
east texas.
i was very very very scared.
they never crossed the fence. gangs of em would come to the fence and yell and shoot guns into the air. i could not, simply could not shoot them untill they crossed the fence onto our property.
i lay there all night shivering with fear. my brother the same. i drank the canteen of water i had with me and the pint pilots flask, later my brother said he was parched also.
we decided, the whole family there, that we were gonna fight, that we were not gonna be victims of these people. we decided these people were NOT going to run us off our own property.
i was pretty sure the galil would have shut em down.
these were drunken, doped up folks we were dealing with, wanting to be all angry and act all bigshot.
i was flat out hoping that once i dusted some of em the rest would run.
thank god it didnt happen.
it was almost surreal to hold my M1A in my hands with intent to protect halfway between mount bellvue and dayton texas in stopped traffic the night of the horrid rita evacuation.
recently ive bought a little ar carbine. im beginning to trust it wont jam every shot.
it may become a go to gun.
right now im still on with the M1A or the hk91 clone or the short barrelled mossy 500.
bad time to post. late night, toothache keepin me awake,
now im literally shivering, remembering how freakin scared i was that night with all them people on the next property and the rita thing where it took 22 hours to go 110 miles.
its gonna be a long long night i think.
i aint a bit afraid to admit i was very afraid both of those times, but i knew i had family to protect and i knew i had to, i had to do whatever it would have taken to protect them.
no man threatens me on my own property...
property beside ours on the night of the king riots.
people were literally screaming out our names, calling threats across the fence.
the sherriffs department refused to come down there.
i roughly figured there were over a hundred of them, i saw guns in the crappy binocs i had, and later some folks shot guns into the air right at the property line.
i postitioned myself about two hundred feet from the property line, prone with a drop off behind me, with a 308 galil on a bipod. i only had three 25 round mags for it.
i had a clayco ak underfolder with five mags.
i had no pistol with me. at the house i had two repro 1858 remington 44 blackpowder pistols loaded as absolute last ditch.
my brother was about 75 feet behind me and to my right with my other AK.
my eleven year old nephew had a 1022 with a 25 rounder back at the house.
my mom had only an old webley pistol.
inside the house was an old model 12 with a broken extractor and a worn out ejector, but it had a round of number ones in the barrell. there were three 25's for the 1022 and some 10 rounders, there was an old springfield 22(that had been retired when it once went full auto shooting at a squirrel) loaded up. there was an old iver johnson 20 gauge with a load of buckshot in it. there was a garrett arms repro of an 1859 sharps cavalry carbine loaded with a 375 grain bullet in front of 60 grains of FF blackpowder.
the plan was for me to open up with the galil when they began crossing the fence, one mag then pull back halfway to the brother. my mom was to phone 911 when she heard the galil open up and tell em they better get something there cause is a gun battle going on now.
when i began the pull back he was to open up untill i began firing again in next position. leapfrog like that till...
third mag gone, drop the galil and we would go to single aimed(as good as we could aim in the dark) shots, holding our ground and moving up and down a shallow ditch, unless we were recieving lots of fire, in which case we would fall past an open area and i would go to block and the brother would get past me and circle to my left to try and establish enfilade on the attackers from a treeline there with big pines.
we had two pump shotguns and all the buckshot and slugs in the house in two bags positioned on the road after the wide spot. if we had to or one of us was hit the other was to get to the house and go through the crappy guns there and then...then...die i guess.
sounds crazy doesnt it?
it happened.
east texas.
i was very very very scared.
they never crossed the fence. gangs of em would come to the fence and yell and shoot guns into the air. i could not, simply could not shoot them untill they crossed the fence onto our property.
i lay there all night shivering with fear. my brother the same. i drank the canteen of water i had with me and the pint pilots flask, later my brother said he was parched also.
we decided, the whole family there, that we were gonna fight, that we were not gonna be victims of these people. we decided these people were NOT going to run us off our own property.
i was pretty sure the galil would have shut em down.
these were drunken, doped up folks we were dealing with, wanting to be all angry and act all bigshot.
i was flat out hoping that once i dusted some of em the rest would run.
thank god it didnt happen.
it was almost surreal to hold my M1A in my hands with intent to protect halfway between mount bellvue and dayton texas in stopped traffic the night of the horrid rita evacuation.
recently ive bought a little ar carbine. im beginning to trust it wont jam every shot.
it may become a go to gun.
right now im still on with the M1A or the hk91 clone or the short barrelled mossy 500.
bad time to post. late night, toothache keepin me awake,
now im literally shivering, remembering how freakin scared i was that night with all them people on the next property and the rita thing where it took 22 hours to go 110 miles.
its gonna be a long long night i think.
i aint a bit afraid to admit i was very afraid both of those times, but i knew i had family to protect and i knew i had to, i had to do whatever it would have taken to protect them.
no man threatens me on my own property...
Microgunner
New member
What a great accounting.
Oh wait, we were talking about a SD rifle (ala "fighting rifle")...what was I thinking? Your right, I forgot that you will be picking off "the threat" that is on that other hill...a hill that is here in the states.
Must be lots of terrorists, looters and gangbangers out to get us in them there hills of Montanny. Aliens too.
Shaman, Thanks for the story and glad you and yours came away ok.
Your story is kinda what I imagined initially......potentially being attacked by a bunch of men in which case the 223 would be the more efficient caliber because it allows for such fast follow up shots. Now that I have more information and experience with what one might expect from riots, looters, and gang problems, I don't think the need for super fast followups is as great as penetration of each round. Especially in the urban environment which I live.
Your story is kinda what I imagined initially......potentially being attacked by a bunch of men in which case the 223 would be the more efficient caliber because it allows for such fast follow up shots. Now that I have more information and experience with what one might expect from riots, looters, and gang problems, I don't think the need for super fast followups is as great as penetration of each round. Especially in the urban environment which I live.
Remember David I'm simply trying to select in advance a weapon/caliber combination that provides me the attributes that best serve my expected purpose.
If I expect a greater need for penetration then caliber certainly does matter. If I expected a wave attack caliber would also matter.
Take your 10/22 or AR in 223 and try to reach the BG's shooting from behind a vehicle or a block fence or even a dumpster. Yeah I know you are so good that you'll hit them in the head when they pop out to fire right. Well I'm good also.....better than most......I'm also realistic. The pressure of a shootout combined with the erratic movement of the BG's will surely spoil my aim. Same reason we are taught to shoot for COM if I had a rifle chambered in a caliber that could penetrate alot of cover I could increase the size of my target and thus my chances for survival.
These are the reasons I feel caliber matters. It may not matter much but it certainly matters. When you have done just about everything you can to ensure your survival....even the small advantages could be huge.
Not me, I am the other away around. I have shot both the M14 (M1A), the M16 (AR15) as well as the M1 Garand in competition. For me, I know that with my .223, I can very effectively place my shots at 500 yrds with iron sights against a stationary target. At 300 yrds, I can effectively place my shots with rapid fire. Moving targets get fairly easy at 200 yrds.
I have been to the training centers and have done the penetration tests with 5.56, the 7.62x51mm and the 7.62x39mm, both on brick and cinder block faced "structures" as well as against automobiles. All rounds penetrated the building material effectively, although the 5.56 did need one or two extra rounds to take down the barrier enough for the follow-on shots to be a lethal to however was behind the barrier. As for the automobile test, none of the rounds had trouble penetrating and destroying the "occupants" inside. The only safe areas that offered even a modicum of cover was the engine block and the axle areas.
So, for me, in an urban environment...and NOT the foot hills of Montana, the 223 is all I will need.
Creature, That was my thinking for years. Now I'm worried about the guys not in but on the other side of the car. I don't want to have to fire multiple rounds to exposed someone behind a block wall. Basically I'm questioning the need for speed over the need for penetration. It's driving me crazy.
No one is going to want to stay behind a vehicle that is being shot up with 223...trust me. They would be seriously maimed or dead if they stayed.
You should go to the Hernando gun shoot next year and watch the live fire against cars. Most people watch the M2's and the MG42's. But pay attention to the guys with the AR's and what the results are when used against a vehicle in terms of anti-personnel effectiveness. I am always amazed at what that round is capable of...I have always wonder why that round is so disparaged when it is so dang effective.
You should go to the Hernando gun shoot next year and watch the live fire against cars. Most people watch the M2's and the MG42's. But pay attention to the guys with the AR's and what the results are when used against a vehicle in terms of anti-personnel effectiveness. I am always amazed at what that round is capable of...I have always wonder why that round is so disparaged when it is so dang effective.
Creature I saw the Box o Truth against a vehicle. The 308 passed through the vehicle and the 223 dented the other side. I'm not allowed to have steel core ammunition which I'm sure would have helped Both get better.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4_2.htm
I noticed that the 223 also deflected upward from it original path. Check out page one were the hits are then see the exit holes on page 2.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4_2.htm
I noticed that the 223 also deflected upward from it original path. Check out page one were the hits are then see the exit holes on page 2.
David Armstrong
Moderator
As happens so often, if you would spend just a little time and money getting some training from professionals in the field you'd realize how silly so much of what you worry about really is. You keep trying to find a hardware solution to what is a software problem.
With the 10/22 I would select different tactics/responses. The AR is quite capable of reaching the BG behind the vehicle or fence. Your .308 might or might not reach behind the dumpster. The caliber doesn't determine your success.
Sigh. Please let me make my own claims regarding my abilities. For you to continually make things up gets old.
Sounds to me like you are planning on wasting a lot of ammo.
Sigh. Playing "what if" on the internet, trying to get some support for your questionable decision-making, gives no advantage small or large. You want something that will increase your chances a whole lot--get some tactical training behind you. Then you'll understand why these "small advantages' aren't advantages at all.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Well said. Few situations that can't be handled with a '94 and a man that knows how to use it.
MTMilitiaman
New member
Attributing quotes to people who didn't say them isn't a good way to further your argument, esp when the entire debate is written down as a matter of public record, and your claims can be so easily disproved.
Just a hint...
Maybe you weren't trying to attribute the last quote to me, but I said no such thing. And I am guessing the poster who did isn't from Montana. I realize two is a large number for us country folk, but maybe if you are that easily confused, you should stick to building blocks and Crayolas
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