What do you do when you loose confidence in your equipment

M

Metal god

New member
A little back story first . I've been loading for awhile now . I loaded rifle with a single stage all the way up to when I started loading pistol ( almost 2 years ago ) . I learned real quick hand gun loading and a single stage press is not something I'll want to do so I bought a turret press ( Lee classic turret ) . I had up until that point weighed each and every charge when loading my rifle loads .

I wanted to get the full benefit of the turret press so I bought the Lee auto disc . The first time I tried it I knew it sucked do to the leakage and the limitations to the amount I could throw . I then bought the Lee 'PRO" auto disc and liked it for the most part . How ever there was not one load I use that corresponded to any of the powder charges it would give me . So I see the auto drum and yes I buy that :rolleyes: . At first I loved it , It seemed to work great . I was really able to produce a good amount of 45 and 9mm , much quicker then on a single stage .

Then one night I do my regular prep buy throwing and weighing a bunch of charges to be sure it was working correctly . All was good so I start cranking out some 45acp . About 30 or so rounds in I see that the amount of powder in the case after each throw looks less then when I started . I check it and sure enough it's under charging by 2gr give or take a little . I spend the next two hours trying to figure it out and ultimately conclude the rotor was not fully rotating resulting in not all the powder being dumped .

To keep this shorter then it could be . I'll say I fixed the issue only for another to come up . So now I have 3 new powder measure that I wont use because I have no confidence in them . I now use my Hornady powder measure that works really well and just throw into a primed case and then run the case through all 4 stations on the turret press . I just have the decapping pin removed from the sizing die and I size the case with the powder and primer in it .

Ok cool right I got it all figured out to a point that I'm ok with how it's working . In the last couple years I've went to throwing some of my plinking rifle loads with the Hornady powder measure . I stick with ball powder like H335 and short stick powders like 4320 for the obvious reasons right .

Here's the thing my Hornady powder measure as been trowing charges great for years . Even when I was weighing each charge I would still use the powder measure to throw close and then trickle to be spot on . In all that time throwing everything from H335 to IMR 4350 it's been real consistent , Well until a couple days ago . I was throwing some 4320 with a charge that filled the case to the bottom of the neck . How ever I had one throw that only dropped maybe a 1/4 of the intended charge . That's odd but since it had never happened before no big deal . I tap the measure a bit and throw another charge . Worked great , through a few more to check . All's good so I start cranking them out again and in about #15 it shorts the charge again .

Thank goodness I caught all these different failures but now I'm about to a point that I don't trust any of my 4 powder measures . Either they can't be trusted to throw the correct charge or I don't have the option to throw the actual charge I want .

Is this just part of reloading ? I know the rule is to make sure each charge is weighed or thrown correctly and I do that . How ever this has really shook my confidence in my equipment .

Do I need to get over it and just do my part as the nut behind the wheel ?
 
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Consistency in using the drop measures is critical. You have to double tap on both the up and down strokes to make certain the powder fills the voids and then that it drops all of the powder. Are you using a baffle in the powder tube?

Most drop measures have two different rotors. One for rifle and the other for pistol. They ship them with the rifle and you have to buy the pistil rotor as an extra item. Are you using a pistil rotor?

Most reloading books will tell you to check the powder drop on every 10th round. So yes this is a common issue. They also make powder check dies (powder cop) so that you can confirm the case was filled.

You cannot rely on drop charts. You have to measure the first few drops on a scale so that you know exactly what you are dropping. Each batch of powder has a different density and will be off.
 
I can not help you with your Lee problems; most of my Lee equipment was given to me as a bonus for purchasing other equipment, there was that one time I tried to give it back to the dealer. He insisted he was generous; he insisted I did not pay for it therefore I could not give it back.

Reloading could be one of those 'liken unto' things. Ed Sullivan had a variety act show; one of the acts had a performer spinning plates on sticks. Just about the time he had all the plates spinning he had to start over. So I suppose reloading is liken unto spinning plates on sticks, about the time everything is up and running the reloader has to start over.

If it was not like that I would not have a lock out die or a powder die and then there is that thing I do with components. I weight components like cases, powder, primers and bullets. No matter what when I finish I know how much the finish round should weight. There is nothing entertaining about chambering a round and pulling the trigger and not know what is about to happen.

And then there is the equipment; I have 50 year old equipment that has fewer problems than the equipment you are using. I have Lee dippers in sets, one set is yellow, another set is black and the other is red. My dippers by Lee are scientifically engineered. If the powder in the dipper is level with the dipper the load is 'starting load', if the powder is heaped up in the form of a cone and will not support another flake of powder the dipper full and said to be a maximum charge.

F. Guffey
 
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On your Lee powder measure problems,I have never owned or used one.So,generally,no comment,except that Lee makes generally sound,reliable,yet "value line" equiptment.
For some things,like the factory crimp die,universal decapper,and the hand press,they are "the tool"
Measuring charges is critical work,and if a system was mediocre I wouldn't use it.But,as I said,I have no experience with Lee powder measures.

I have used the Hornady.Mine serves me very well.I have had excellent results with RCBS and Redding,also.

The nature of powder granules,occasionally some find a way to bridge or not flow through the measure well,or some long cylinder granules "crunch"

With just about any powder measure.

You can get really good results via technique.

1) Slow down a bit.The metering takes time.When you raise the handle,give it at least 2 full seconds,maybe 3,before pulling it down.
2)The raise and lower stroke,be like a machine.Very consistant.Come against the stop with a uniform "thunk".That little shock helps the powder flow.
3) If you get a crunch or if anything feels unusual,dump the case in the hopper,throw a charge in your scale pan and dump it in the hopper,then you might as well throw another charge to check at the scale.All good?esume charging.
Talking single stage or turret process,there are two ways of running.You can run a batch,say 50 or 100,or however many you have loading blocks for,through one operation.Like sizing,or priming,or charging.
Then you inspect,with good light,the powder level in each case visually,for each loading block.Anything looks funny,weigh it.

Or,you can run one round at a time through the process,indexing the head on a turret.You still do the powder level visual check for every round before seating a bullet.

The visual inspection is the backup plan for powder measure "mischarges"

Some folks get an aquarium air pump,pretty cheap,and via bungee ,spring or Velcro,whatever,attach it to the powder measure.Its not about pumping air,it for vibration.The vibration facilitates powder flow .

That Hornady is a good tool.But all measures need good technique and the backup visual check.
 
I want to say ya ya i know all that . How ever you guys are likely right in saying slow down and make deliberate actions when using the powder measures . Although i believe ive worked the measures correctly .i will make the extra effort to be sure each stroke is the same as the last .

This last issue i had with the Lee rotor measure was leakage into the rotor area . I was unable to get the rotor to opperate correctly and have no leakage at the same time . It was either to tight or it leaked . Someone sugested using some dry graphite lube . I bought the spary can type but the amount applied seems to be to much and i wiped it back out . I've not given it much of a try after that and it's just been sitting on the shelf for months now . I should pull it back out snd give it another try .
 
There are a number of potential causes for what you are seeing. Static could cause powder to hesitate to flow into the metering chamber; you could understroke or stroke too quickly during either the fill or dump stages. Bridging occurs with stick and flake powders, of course, so tapping can be helpful. Try raising the lever and tapping lightly twice on the metal casting with a brass rod, then lower the lever and tapping twice again. The tapping will settle powder, so keep checking a scale until things settle in. The tapping will force you to give the metering chamber time to fill and empty. I've often thought that's one of the secrets of the old Lyman 55 design; that door knocker tapping lever makes people give the powder time to flow.

With the Hornady measure, I'll also suggest you empty it and disassemble it and clean all the metal parts with denatured alcohol, then apply some graphite powder to a rag and rub it into all the moving surfaces of the measure, then reassemble it and run the graphite powder through it several times, catching it in a primed case and returning it to the hopper.
 
Metal god, I am not picking on you, just relating my experience. When I feel like my equipment is not doing right I have to step back and "relearn". When I do I almost always finally come to the realization that it is not my equipment, but me that is the problem. Not just in reloading, but in everything I do.

David
 
Lots of people start with Lee equipment then down the road buy better equipment.

I didn't have a lot of problems with my Hornady measure, maybe it's just time for a cleaning?

For the "what do you do" question, I either fix it or buy/build something that doesn't have the problem.
 
What do you do when you loose confidence in your equipment?

When I lose confidence in any equipment I remove and replace it with known good equipment I have confidence in. That said I started out with Lee and still use their dies as well as others. However, pictured below are a few old Lee Powder Measures along side an RCBS Uniflow. The Uniflow has a baffle in it which someone mentioned earlier.

Powder%20Throws%20Measures.png


One need only pick them up and it becomes apparent by weight which is the better unit. The Lee stuff is all plastic which while making it more affordable seems to make it less reliable and in a powder throw or powder measure the thing I want most is repeatability. I want uniform repeatable throws over and over again. Among my earliest presses was a Lee Turret and I just manually operated the RCBS Uniflow and got good repeatable charges over and over again. The pictured stuff is well over 25 plus years old as far as I recall.

If your equipment is clean and you use the same pull for each load things should work. Applying the same force for each powder drop is important and should hold +/- 0.1 grain with most ball or spherical powders.Your Hornady should deliver consistent repeatable powder drops.

Ron
 
If I had that kind of inconsistency ...in my powder drops, I would get rid of those powder measures ( after I made sure it was not something I was doing, eliminating any static issue, etc that was discussed above).

I've heard other loaders discuss this kind of an issue being a problem with Lee equipment...and I don't if they were right or not / and I don't know if you can fix it by changing powders, etc or not.

In handgun ammo in particular ...I want a press that gives me some indication of whether the powder drop is accurate or not ...powder cop on Hornaday LNL, Powder check die on Dillon 650.../ especially when many of the powders I like have very small variations ( 0.4 grain ) is common between published min and max. I need that powder drop to be no more than plus or minus, consistently, within 0.1 grain.

I also rely on a visual inspection as the case leaves the powder check station ...before I set the bullet on the case.../ but I also know that I can't detect even a variation of 0.5 grain in most powders by eye...( and I've run some tests with my buddies -- verifying we can't see a difference of 0.5gr even when a drop is called for at 4.6 gr of TiteGroup in a 9mm case...).

If you can't get the consistency you need ( 0.1 grain ) ....then in my view, its time to get rid of that equipment and move on to something better ...like a LNL or 650 press - that if you do your part / will give you very consistent powder drops !
 
I went back to basic's. When dispensing powder , I wanted to make sure the correct amount of powder went into each case. At times my measure would act erratically , dropping light then heavy. I couldn't see it go into the case with a powder measure. Remember the Lee $9.99 Classic Loader , it came with a powder dipper ? I went back to the dipper!
I do 50 cases at a time, scoop the powder , level it off and pour it into the case. I watch exactly how much goes in, make sure each gets charged and inspect all 50 with a light to make sure they are properly charged.

It may not be fast....but I don't think any prizes are given for speed in reloading , I would rather have quality and safe over fast. I have found 100% confidence in dipped powder charges.
So far I've had no more problems with the dipper method. I make my own for whatever charge I want.
Gary
 
Buy the best reloading equipment. Never go cheap with a serious hobby. No offense to Lee users as some of their equipment is minimal. Having any issues with reloading equipment, buy most recommended and reliable.
 
My inexpensive plastic Lee rotary powder measure works with nary a problem.
It's been very accurate for many years.
So does the Dillon measure on their aged progressive press I've used for decades.
From one price extreme to the other, both with excellent results.
Don't know what to tell you except maybe add a powder level alarm to your press to take the worry out.
 
Metal god-good for you for catching the problem. An inconsistent powder measure would creep me out.

I've reloaded for years and years but I'm in the 'fat, dumb and happy' group. I started without someone to show me how to do it, got some equipment that worked (RCBS) and then never looked at any other equipment or any other way of doing things besides what was working for me.

I really had the blinders on but didn't know any better. Heck, I never realized how useful a 'turret' press would have been. This didn't really change until I joined this forum.

I always throw and weigh several charges when starting out a reloading session but then pretty much go on auto pilot. My RCBS Uniflow has been consistently consistent. I will change my ways. Thanks.
 
I have always used Lee products (LCT) and never had an issue as you described but then again I only reload pistol ammo. My auto disk performs flawlessly but I don't use the disk any more I have used the charge bar ever since they came out. I do know that you cannot leave the turret on the powder die on it's station and keep charging a case without tapping the powder tube. It needs the movement of the turret through the stations to ensure the drop cavity gets filled up. So if you are using the single stage function of the LCT you must tap the powder bowl before each drop of powder.

I know from years of forums/research not one brand of equipment is 100% reliable. I have read about numerous issues with powder measures from just about every company that has ever made one. And your issues has certainly been a topic of those discussions. There are a lot of Lee bashers out there trashing Lee products when in reality every company has had their issues. I have seen people who owned the holy grail of reloading, Dillon,on loaders all the way up to the 1050 get frustrated and go back to the Lee LCT for its simplicity in operation. Also, contrary to what Reloadron said above Lee equipment is not all plastic he needs to refrain from making inaccurate statements and also just because something weighs close to an anvil does not make it a good powder measure. That is an unreasonable analogy.

I find it interesting that your reliable Hornady powder measure began to do this as well as the other powder measures after it had been working and reliable. I won't repeat it but Unclenick and a couple of others made some good suggestions. I would follow their suggestions. I will add that I do use powder graphite on my powder measure, it has definitely improved its performance. If I see any kind of issues you described, I will breakdown my powder measure, clean it and re-apply the graphite liberally including pouring graphite into the powder hopper and running it through the die and wiping off all the excess. Graphite is totally compatible with gunpowder so there is no concern about using it. I really believe this is why my Lee Auto Disk is reliable and accurate.

Last just step back and closely look at your process and maybe start back at the basics and re-evaluate your procedures and maintenance of your equipment. Good luck
 
My scale started acting up. I bought a new one. I never liked my brother all that much, I told him that I had a scale that was acting up a bit and offered it to him. I gave him fair warning. If he blew something up because he wasn't careful, well, I told him right up front and in all caps with underlines.
 
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