What do we get out of our alliance with Israel?

[tube_ee]

Maybe it's time for the mods to close this one...

It's going where I feared from the beginning that it might. And since I opened it, I bear some responsibility for that. I'm sorry.

This thread was not started as a discussion of Israeli - Palestinian issues. It was about the direct and indirect benefits and costs <b>to the United States</b> of our alliance with Israel. Clearly, the alliance is in Israel's interest, but is it in ours?

So far, we've got:

Intel
Pressure on Arab states
Moral obligation

as reason why the relationship should be continued as it is. I think we all know what the costs are. What is the balance of those benefits and costs?

If this continues as it is, I'll ask the mods to shut it down... which they're probably considering anyway. Is a reasonable, targeted discussion even possible on this one?

--Shannon

 

[Bud Helms]

Is a reasonable, targeted discussion even possible on this one?

Possible, but not likely at this point. Not from behind a keyboard.

I always find it interesting that on a bulletin board, where you can review, in your own time, your own words for content and purpose, preview your post, even edit them for a time, we still find posts written as though without thought.

Read my signature line. It becomes more true every day.

 

[oldbillthundercheif]

Hell, the Israelis are scrappy and sneaky...

That's a good enough reason to stay friends with them in my book. So what if they spy on us a little, we spy on them just as much and we both spy on the rest of the world together.

Also, they can do things that we can not get away with, even if they occasionally push it a little too far.

They may be sunsabitches, but they are OUR sunsabitches.

 

[TargetTerror]

Careful, mvpel, you are basing your arguments on invalid assumptions. You argue that the destiny of Palestinians was entirely in their hands from 1948 until the present. I disagree with you, and I tried to give some reasons in my original post.

Lets look at another example though, and it may make things a little more clear. Imagine any refugee camp, say ones set up in Rwanda in the not too distant past. How much control did the refugees have over there condition and there future? Precious little, I would imagine. This is precisely the same position that the Palestinians are in. They did not "let" themselves become dependent on Israel, that is how the limitied opportunities that developed for them played out.

don't take everything your ivory-tower hard-leftist poli-sci professor had to say as gospel

I don't take what ANYONE says as gospel. I've read numerous accounts of the conflict, both Palestinian and Zionist, looked at many of the events in detail, and have come to my viewpoint on my very own, thank you.

mvpel, I can't help but turn your own quote above around on you:

Perhaps it's because the only Palestinian gross national product is homemade bombs, missiles, and fanatical lust for Jewish blood...

Perhaps you'll be surprised to learn the Palestinians have a thriving orange industry.

Where's the vast piles of oil money, for example?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that there is no oil (or certainly not to the extent it exists in neighboring ARab countries) in either Israel or the West Bank.

My opinions I have supported with history and facts. They are my own interpretations, not gospel. Your above quotes seem to be more reiterations of common misconceptions, which seems more "gospel" to me.

(I've tried to keep this academic, though, admittedly, this is perhaps the most heated debate many will ever enter Sorry if I have come across as brusque, that is not my intent. I would expect the same courtesy in return (from everyone, I'm not implying you were out of line, mvpel)).

 

[mvpel]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that there is no oil (or certainly not to the extent it exists in neighboring ARab countries) in either Israel or the West Bank.

My point was that if the Saudis are so stricken by the plight of the unfortunate Palestinians, why is it that the US provides a third of Palestinian foreign aid?

 

[Al Norris]

If this continues as it is, I'll ask the mods to shut it down... which they're probably considering anyway. Is a reasonable, targeted discussion even possible on this one?

I always find it interesting that on a bulletin board, where you can review, in your own time, your own words for content and purpose, preview your post, even edit them for a time, we still find posts written as though without thought.

And on most boards, there is the inevitable thread drift. Which is one reason for moderators.

This one has drifted far enough. Sorry folks, but this thread has been off topic for a while.