What do we get out of our alliance with Israel?

[Baba Louie]

1939. US Senator Harry Truman gives a speech on the floor condemning British plans on limiting Jewish immigration (from Europe) into Palestine based on their stated plan to do so back in 1917 (see Balfour Declaration).
1944. Truman spoke at a Chicago rally...

"Today, not tomorrow, we must do all that is humanly possible to provide a haven for all those who can be grasped from the hands of Nazi butchers. Free lands must be opened to them."

Now, I was born and raised in Independence Missouri, went to Truman H.S., know and love all things "H.S.T."... so, one school of thought is...

Truman, alone, as President of the US, saw that the right thing to do, the only thing to do, was to back the Zionist movement of European exiles into Palestine or let them die in refugee camps in Europe (can you imagine... no one wanted the few Jews remaining since life was tough enough post WWII and it probably was their own fault anyway, and yes that's my tongue in my cheek).

How many other nations on the planet had safely harbored their Jewish constituients circa 1934-1945? The Dutch, probably more than any other. Only the US, which had the largest number of Jews outside Europe's dwindling numbers, many in prominant positions in industry, education, law, medicine, science and the arts who had safely watched the horror of events in the ETO, who had money and knew about a failed Missouri haberdasher whose lifelong friend and former partner was a Jew.

Only one man in the position to do so, had the balls to stand up to the world.

Only one man leading one nation.

A very unfavorable position at that.

http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

A second less idealistic line of thought might go...
(ahem) Not to mention the votes a man can garner from such a stance (ahem)

What do we gain from it? Not one frickin' thing. Except the thought that maybe helping someone when they really need it and are willing to fight for it, who can and did turn a wasteland into a land of milk and honey, who can, have, did and will fight against all comers because they KNOW what it's like when some outsiders are calling the shots and exterminating masses of people... yada yada

(ahem) Not to mention the votes... (ahem) I'm such a cynic nowadays

Truman also backed the Marshall Plan, helped Greece fight Soviet led Albanians, helped Turkey, South Korea, etc., all of whom could not vote for him (but probably had relatives here who could)

Sometimes doing the right thing can also get you re-elected into office.

 

[tube_ee]

So, friendship and intel... those are good things, especially in that part of the world.

Here's how I see it. The only real US strategic interest in the Middle East is oil. They've got it, we need it. Now, the Israelis don't have any, so continuing our support would assume that that support helps us get what we need from the countries over there that do have it. I can see some truth in that, in that having a strong ally in the region allows another avenue for putting pressure on states with which we need to do business. That's clearly to our benefit.

Now, rhetoric aside, Israel isn't going anywhere. Hamas has about as much chance of destroying them as I do of making a standing brod jumpto the moon. Except Iran, Arab states have pretty much given up on destryoing Israel militarily, and even the Iranians haven't gone beyond proxy wars and funding Palestinian partisans. Repeated defeats will do that. Israel has the strongest conventional military in the regioin, plus nukes and a willingness to use them. Another Arab invasion is not in the cards. I don't buy that israel is fightinig for her survival, because I just don't see a credible threat to her survival. Even a nuclear-armed Iran wouldn't do it, IMO. Nuclear powers don't go to war very often. MAD works, and the Iranians have got to know that if they invaded Israel, or used nuclear weapons, Tehran would be vaporized. They may not be sane by our standards, but they're sane by theirs, and they're clearly not stupid.

Our unwavering support for just about whatever Israel does isn't free. It costs us quite a bit in terms of support from moderate Arab states. Yeah, they still do business with us, because money talks. But there's clearly a cost.

Is the benefit worth the cost? Is there a different balance point that would benefit us more? I don't know. I think there may be, but I'm not at all sure.

--Shannon

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Moderate arab states like Jordan and Egypt have signed treaties with Israel and get along.

The history of terrorism and the motivations of the attackers on the USA haven't been about Israel. Bin Ladden didn't really care about that issue.

The Arab states have used Israel as a scapegoat for their own problems and divert their populations. Thus, we should play along with that?

Peace could be achieved shortly except for the issue I just stated. We should not support Israel as to cater to a mob mentality?

Sure there is real politique - but should we live that way?

 

[Danzig]

I have a question about the nation of Israel....

I hear it said often that Israel has a right to survive as a nation.

My question is why? Who says that this is so?

Many nations have come and go in the history of mankind. Where are the Babylonians, Mayans, Aztecs, Assyrians, etc? Gone. It is the natural state of existence for civilizations to exist for while and fade away.

That being the case, is there any non religious reason why anyone here believes that Israel has a "right" to continued existence despite all of the powers aligned against it? Has Israel any more right to continued existence than any of those other civilizations that have disappeared into the past?

The question applies to all nations..but I hear it said more often of Israel than most other nations..

 

[mvpel]

That being the case, is there any non religious reason why anyone here believes that Israel has a "right" to continued existence despite all of the powers aligned against it? Has Israel any more right to continued existence than any of those other civilizations that have disappeared into the past?

You are mixing things up a bit.

Posting on a firearms-related forum, surely you recognize the individual human right to self-defense against aggressors.

This is simply an extension of the fundamental human right to self-defense to the national level.

Saying that "Israel has a right to exist" is simply another way of saying that the citizens of Israel have a right to defend their nation against those who would attack it and murder all its inhabitants as the President of Iran has pledged to do.

"Our right to exist--have you ever heard of such a thing? Would it enter the mind of any Briton or Frenchman, Belgian or Dutchman, Hungarian or Bulgarian, Russian or American, to request for its people recognition of its right to exist?

Mr. Speaker: We were granted our right to exist by the God of our fathers at the glimmer of the dawn of human civilization four thousand years ago. Hence, the Jewish people have an historic, eternal and inalienable right to exist in this land, Eretz Israel, the land of our forefathers. We need nobody's recognition in asserting this inalienable right. And for this inalienable right, which has been sanctified in Jewish blood from generation to generation, we have paid a price unexampled in the annals of nations.

Mr. Speaker: From the Knesset of Israel, I say to the world, our very existence per se is our right to exist!"

 

[TargetTerror]

Anyone with an actual education (not me) in Political Science want to chime in, here?

First, I was a recent political science major, I took a course specifically on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, and my family is Jewish. Take from that what you will.

Second, excellent question Shannon! If more people asked basic questions like this the world would be a much better place

My view of our alliance with Israel is that we foot nearly the entire bill for her army and any and all military actions she chooses to engage in, and we share (or even get more of the blame) from the Arab world for her actions.

I have a friend who did a month-long training camp in the Israeli army last summer. It is basically a program for foreigners to go through Israeli boot camp without committing to joining the army. He was told that Israel buys all of its M16s from the US for $1. That is not a typo: ONE DOLLAR. I don't know what the figures are for other weapons and vehicles, but I'm sure its similar. Next time you see an Israeli soldier on the news, remember that YOU paid for the gun he is holding with your taxes.

The second part of my answer, our view in the ARab world, is a little more complicated, and I think warrants a quick history of Israel and Zionism.

Zionism is literally a push for the state of Israel. It is separate from Judaism, and not all Jews are zionists necessarily. It arose around 1900 and continues up to the present day. One interesting t hing to note is that in the 1930s? the British did offer the Zionists a Jewish Homeland in Africa. The Zionists rejected it, saying they wanted Israel b/c it was their spiritual homeland.

The Zionists began pushing local Palestinians off of their land in the early 1900s, and this increased through several waves of immigartion. Zioinists would buy land owned by "absentee landowners" and assume control of it. But, the locals had been employing a system of "use/work the land and own it" for generations. Land titling had been pushe don them by the Ottomans but largely ignored. Thus,you ahd a clash of expectations where the Palestinians lost, and were very bitter to be evicted from their families land.

The next major event in my mind as it pertains to yuor question is the Israeli War of Independence in 1948. Nearly every Palestinian in Israel fled the fighting by heading east, regardless of where they lived in Israel. They left expecting to return when the fighting was over. When the war ended, and Israel was born, Israel said that all of the Palestinians that left would not be allowed back, and Israelis seized control of their land, homes, and possessions. Some of these refugees were admitted into neighboring Arab countries, but most were forced to remain in the West Bank, where their children and grandchildren remain today. Still refugees. Though Israel's borders technically do not include the West Bank or GAza Strip, the Israeli army excercises martial law in these territories, and the collective Israeli "imagined map" of Israel also includes these areas (go look at any map of Israel).

To most Arabs (particularly the masses), they see Israel through the eyes of these refugees. Thus, Israel is seen as an illegal occupier of the West Bank and Gaza at best, and an illegal occupier of the whole of israel at worse. I find their anger understandable.

Personally, I fully agree with the Arab perspective. Israel was born through the displacement, violent and otherwise, of a people long established on that land. The only claim the Zionists have to israel specifically is that its the "jewish homeland" mention in the Torah, and Jewish ancestors supposedly lived there. This argument also falls apart, as the Canaanites, and others lived in Israel before the first Jews arrived and displaced them. Thus, anyone of those origins would have a greater claim to Israel.

There is also the issue of how Israel treats the Palesitinians. The short answer is like 2nd class citizens. The longer answer is that in addition, everything about palestinian society has developed to be completely dependent on israel, and this is used against them (I can go into that if anyone is curious, but will omit it here for now). In many ways, Blacks in the South during segregation had it easier than the Palestinians. (At least the blacks could travel freely, more or less, to the town next to them). I suggest rreading at www.aljazeera.com for some more personal accounts of exactly how Palestinians are treated in the Occupied Territories (now before you dismiss aljazeera, realize that it is a legitimate news organization, with no more of an agenda than cnn.com or fox news. its just a different agenda, which is whyit is gnerally dismissed in this country. The reality will likely lie somewhere between fox news and aljazeera, but it is always useful to get a balanced perspective, even if you have to find it yourself)

And what of the peace talks, suicide bombings, terrorists, etc? Both sides are at fault, but the upper hand lies with Israel because it has more power. The negotiation table is anything but equal. Israel is, for all intents and purposes, in a perfectly sustainable state; its just a matter of "security" that they want. The Palestinians are not. Also, most of the attacks on israel are done through terrorist organizations. The Palestinian authority does not wield full control over ALL of these organzations, even if they may be connected to some of them in some way. Israel, however, does have full control over its army, and over all of the "retalationa" attacks. These attacks do little to surpress the terrorists. Rather, the fuel the Palestinians anger more, and make Israel look that much worse to the Arab world.

(It should also be noted that the modern form of "terrorism" as we know it today was actually first used by Zionists in the first part of the 20th century. Also note that many of those same Zionists who pioneered the use of terror went on to hold very high level positions in the Israeli government, including Prime Minister. Ben Gurion?? (i think, i'd have to check the names) was a major politician, and was behind a bombing of a Britihs hotel or embassy in the 1930s that killed 100 people. Additionally, FWIW, numerous top Israeli gov't officials have made comments to the effect of they "hate" palestinians, palestinians shoudl be "wiped out," etc. Hammas and Iran are relative newcomers to this name-calling).

I think that the reason the US backs israel so much is a combination of the extremely strong Zionist influence on Congress, the immediate branding of someone as "anti-semitic" if they question israel, and misguided ideas about israel's role in teh Middle EAst.

Interestingly, Israel has the dubious distinction of having the most UN resolution passed against it of any country in the world. It also has made and used some nuclear-styled weapons:

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=12031

and is in violation of the Geneva Accords:
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11951

Arabs see all of this, and they also see the hypocrisy of the US blindly supporting Israel despite this while going after Iran for similar (but arguably less important/threatening) things).

My opinion (on goes my flame suit ) is that if we want to see an appreciable difference inthe war on terror, the US needs to stop blindly supporting Israel and push for a resolution to the Israel-Palestininan conflict. We should use FORCE if necesary, even if that means bringing Israel back into line. Doing so will bring us more cheer and praise than establishing a "democracy" by force in every ME country. ISRAEL is the key.

 

[cuate]

What do we get from the US/Israel Alliance ?

Mostly for doing the right thing after WWII and following through even to this date. Unless one is a moslem, athiest, agnostic or ??? most believe in the ties of Christianity and Judaism even though a difference over the Messiah exists.

Guns, yes guns must be part of the subject matter, I don't know or even doubt the veracity of $1 AR rifles from the US to Israel, but I do believe that to be a bargain compaired to what I paid for mine. But to date I have never seen the IDF running amok in the streets shooting skyward as have the arabs.
I have never seen news or heard of the Israelis blowing up American Embassies Woldwide, and If there was a Jew on the highjacked planes that did the 9/11 numberm they were captives, not participants.

Do humans have to have some reward for befriending another and helping them?

 

[TargetTerror]

Mostly for doing the right thing after WWII and following through even to this date.

Why exactly do you feel that supporting Israel is the "right" thing to do?

But to date I have never seen the IDF running amok in the streets shooting skyward as have the arabs.
I have never seen news or heard of the Israelis blowing up American Embassies Woldwide, and If there was a Jew on the highjacked planes that did the 9/11 numberm they were captives, not participants.

You're argument here, as it relates to the original post of this thread, seems to be that Arabs are our enemy, not Israelis, and that therefore we must support Israel.

I will agree with you that Israel is not our enemy. However, I believe I made the argument above that her actions are completely contradictory to our own best interests.

It is also worth questioning (and I think this ties in with my response just now) how did we get to our current state of affairs where the West (primarily the US) is pitted in an existential war against the Arab world? I havent' studied this in enough detail to purport to know the answer, though I have my thoughts. Is anyone more knowledgeable about willing to enlighten us?

My impression is that, starting with Israel uprooting Palestinians and continuing with our oil-driven ME policies of last century, Arabs see themselves in an existential war against the West. They see themselves as being oppressed and colonialized, which has led to the sort of existential terrorist attacks you see coming from al Qaeda. Blidnly supporting Israel in her current state/foreign policy contineus this cycle and harms us.

 

[Red Grant]

...I feel certain that the Arabic world's declared intention of total destruction of Israel...

Which Arabic world?

Red Grant, you seem to have only one or two examples that you keep repeating over and over hoping they will sound more substantial than they really are.

So do you think attacking and killing the members of U.S. Military in the International sea and refusing to take responsibilities over it

and


turning a U.S. citizen into a traitor against U.S. are not substantial enough on their own?


Another word, do you think they are trivial issues?

We should not support Israel as to cater a mob mentality?

So does this mean you believe we should support everyone who may be a victim of mob mentality around the world even though it may be contrary to our interest?

Sure there is real politique - but should we live that way?

Should we not live that way?

 

[Red Grant]

Mostly for doing the right thing after WWII...

Did Israel do the right thing as well after her creation?


Did Israel have "relationship" with Apartheid Regime in South Africa?


Did Israel ever condem the segregation?


Did Israel ever condem the attempted re-introduction of Colonialsim after WW2?


Did Israel actively collude with would be colonialist agenda of Britain and France during Suez canal crisis, which gave Soviets a big propaganda victory till told NO by Ike?

Unless one is a moslem, athiest, agnostic, or ??? most believe in the ties of Christianity and Judaism...

Guns, yes, guns must be part of the subject matter.

At the risk of closing this thread:

I am assuming that you're a Christian (or you consider yourself as a Christian or at least present yourself as a Christian).


What do Guns have to do with regarding the ties of Christianity and Judaism?

Do humans have to have some reward for befriending another and helping them?

Not necessarily.


But nations are not humans. A nation exists for the purpose of advancing the perceived best, vital/major interest of the people forming that nation.


You're free to give your money to anyone or any nation.

You are even free to advocate that U.S. should forego her perceived overall net vital/major/minor interest in any form to help anyone or any nation contrary to her interest mentioned.

But would that be considered patriotic or unpatriotic?

 

[roman3]

Given the amount of anti-semitism on an American gunboard, is it a wonder Israel will do anything to survive...

Come on how many of you guys think the holocaust didn't happen?

come on don't be shy...Is he right?

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has described the Holocaust as "a myth" and suggested that Israel be moved to Europe.

 

[Red Grant]

Given the amount of anti-semitism in an American gunboard,

Which American gunboard?

is it wonder that Israel will do anything to survive...

Does anything include turning a U.S. citizen into a traitor against U.S and attacking and murdering the members of U.S. Military in the International sea as well?

By the way, does anything include deliberately murdering prisoners of war and non-combatant civilians of country not at war with Israel as well?



...and what does an American gunboard have anything to do with Israel's desire to do anything to survive? (italics are your words, not mine)



Doesn't Israel's desire to survive have everything to do with Zionism, not an American gunboard?

Come on how many of you guys think holocaust didn't happen?

I think it happened. Is U.S. responsible for it?

Come on, don't be shy...Is he right?

Have I been shy in this thread?


Oh, I think he's incorrect in his view that holocaust didn't happen.


...and I also think he's presenting a view that is infeasible in his suggestion (as claimed by you) that Israel be moved to Europe.


So what do you want me to do about it?

 

[mvpel]

There is also the issue of how Israel treats the Palesitinians. The short answer is like 2nd class citizens.

How can you treat someone who isn't even a citizen like a "second-class citizen?" If they were citizens of Israel, instead of dreaming of and working to destroy it and idolizing those who slaughter innocent Jews - acting more like, for example, the 20% of Israeli citizens (1.3 million) who are Arab - they'd have the right to vote (including women, unlike many neighboring Arab nations) and the right to run for a seat in the Knesset.

The longer answer is that in addition, everything about palestinian society has developed to be completely dependent on israel, and this is used against them...

So why were the Palestinians stupid enough to arrange their affairs so that they are completely dependent on Israel? What about the vast sea of Arab nations populated by tens of millions of fellow Arabs surrounding the area?

Perhaps it's because the only Palestinian gross national product is homemade bombs, missiles, and fanatical lust for Jewish blood...

... and because they are being coldly exploited as a tool by their Arab "brethren" as nothing more significant or worthy than a broken thorn in Israel's side. How do you figure that their society has "developed?"

They smashed Jew-built greenhouses in Gaza after the Israeli withdrawal, greenhouses that could have been a productive component of their economy, in the same manner that they typically smash synagogues and ancient Jewish archaeological sites, and proceeded to immediately begin launching rocket attacks on nearby towns. But it's only when Israel takes steps to stop those rockets that the "cease fire" is "endangered," go figure.

The Palestinians got $1.1 billion in aid in 2005, or $300 for every man, woman, and child - a third of it from American taxpayers, so you'd think if they were going to build something meaningful, they'd have plenty of money to do it with., including the cash payments from Saddam to the families of suicide bombers. Where's the vast piles of oil money, for example?

If they do succeed in their goal of wiping out Israel and establishing "Palestinian" sovereignty over all of Eretz Israel, odds are the entire stretch of land will become the same corrupt and barren s***hole that they've built for themselves in Gaza and the West Bank.

You should reexamine your premises, TargetTerror - don't take everything your ivory-tower hard-leftist poli-sci professor had to say as gospel. Universities are the places where avowed terrorists can get a fawning, appreciative audience.

From the University of California:

In September 2006 more than 3,000 concerned faculty, students and citizens signed a Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPMED) petition which directs faculty and administration on all California university campuses to address the problem of antisemitic acts perpetrated against Jewish students. The hostility is fueled by anti-Israel and anti-Zionist rhetoric in the classroom and curriculum.

So people actually feel the need to petition in order to get the problem addressed, can you believe it?

As for the $1 M-16's the Israelis get, the Palestinian police forces got a better deal at $0 each, and some of those firearms wound up in the hands of terrorists to be used against schoolchildren.

 

[Mr. James]

Bravo, mvpel!

Well and truly said.

 

[G-Cym]

You should reexamine your premises, TargetTerror - don't take everything your ivory-tower hard-leftist poli-sci professor had to say as gospel. Universities are the places where avowed terrorists can get a fawning, appreciative audience.

Truer words were never spoken. An once of truth is hard to come by on an University campus, especially from political professors.

 

[mvpel]

Here's another recent example:

Jewish students at Pace University in New York were threatened with reprisals when they tried to bring the movie Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West to their Manhattan campus. Obsession is an award-winning documentary which has been shown on dozens of college campuses and at other venues. The RJC has co-sponsored screenings in several cities.

Pace Hillel President Michael Abdurakhmanov told The New York Times this week that university officials had threatened to call the police if Hillel screened the movie on campus.

Pace officials claim to be trying to broker a dialogue between Hillel and a Muslim student group which objected to the movie, but Abdurakhmanov said that following complaints by the Muslim student group, a dean told him not to show the film, warning him that police could be called in if the film was shown and that Hillel members could be considered suspects in recent anti-Muslim acts at Pace.

Free speech on campus, but only as long as you're saying things that toe the official progressive hyper-leftist line.

 

[Danzig]

Let me state that perhaps I misunderstand history. If so then I am sure that I will be corrected.

Do to many factors throughout history..Israel ceased to be a nation. This occurred under the Roman empire.

Flash forward to the 20th century. A group sets themselves above other nations. They decide to steal a large portion of land that is occupied by another group of people and give it free and clear to a third group of people. This second group of people for decades to regain this land...and they are labeled the bad guys?

Let's put it in a different..but similar...light: Europeans stole land from the American Indians. The United Nations steps in, seizes all of the land west of the Mississippi river, and gives it to the remainder of the Indian tribes living in the United States. Then the current residents of the states of California, Colorado, Washington, Arizona, etc, wage war against the Indians in an attempt to regain the lands taken from them by the United Nations.

Are they justified in doing so? Is there a difference between situation 1 and situation 2? Am I misunderstanding something about the theft of land from the Arabs to give it to the Jews? (Keep in mind...there were no "Israelis" at that time as there was no "Israel" and hadn't been for thousands of years.

If this was a way to repay the Jews for the suffering they endured at the hands of the Nazis...shouldn't the land given to them have come from Germany..not from the Arabs?

Your responses are appreciated.

 

[Wildalaska]

I'm going to stay out of this one, elst I get banned.

WildwhatsthatrulethatgetsthreadsclosedanywayAlaska

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So all those descended from the Europeans should leave the USA? Or we should give California, Texas, etc. back to Mexico, who can then give it to various Native Americans?

During that time, various annoyed residents should machine gun school buses full of children and blow up assorted restaurants to prove their moral worth.

The Israelis have problems. A decision by the Palestinians to live in peace and stop the use of terror would enable both sides to live together. While there are Israeli zealots, most of the Israeli population would live in peace with the Arab population. IIRC, settlements based on compensation for lost land in Israel were rejected.

If the Arabs simply want to drive the Israelis out period and think that terror against civilians is morally justifed, those that support that view are no better than any other terrorist.

The analogy to the USA implies that any resident of the USA is morally corrupt and must leave unless a native american and that the latter are justified in invading your kids' schools and machine gunning them until the former back up and go back across the oceans.

Is 1947 so different from 1492?

Why did the King of Jordan in 1948 say that he welcomed the Jews as he thought they might bring an economic revival to the area. Then he was killed by the 'freedom fighters'. Yeah, that makes sense.

If you hate Jews, you hate Jews - common on gun lists, sad to say.

 

[Samurai]

I agree with Wildalaska.

Samitsgettingalittletoowarminhereurai