What do we get out of our alliance with Israel?

[tube_ee]

First, let me preface with this: I am not an anti-Semite. I have no issue with Jews, Judaism, Zionism, or any of the rest of it. I really don't care. My question is this:

What does the US really get, in terms of our geopolitical interests, out of our alliance with Israel? Is this alliance really in our best interest?

To answer my own question, I'm really not sure. I don't really see much benefit, but I'm not completely informed.

I'm looking at this from a realpolitik, purely American standpoint. Not symbolic, but real, tangible benefits.

What's in it for us?

--Shannon

PS - If this is OT, I apologize, and it should be removed forthwith. Also, if it's on-topic, but veers off into some wierd, "Jews are evil" / "you're a Nazi" cruise through whackoland, I apologize in advance. That's not what I'm hoping for.

 

[michibilly]

What brought this on ?

 

[tube_ee]

Why this question?

The discussion of a possible Israeli attack on Iran and the long, often nasty thread on the Israel / Lebanon war last year. Plus, in any discussion of our relations with Iran (and others), the point that "they want to see Israel destroyed" always comes up.

Mostly, though, it's a question which has always fascinated me, and which never seems to get asked. This seemed like a good place to bring it up, given that there's a lot of well-informed folks, with differing opinions, and a low level of nutcases. (The "more troops" thread is a good example.)

Really, there's no ulterior motive here.

--Shannon

 

[robc]

I think I grew up

But others would say I lost my mind. Totally a matter of who you listen to, what you take seriously, how you were raised, etc. ad infenitem [sic?]. When I was in college (late 80s) I was an anti-Reagan, anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian commie punk. Now I feel as if I see the world for what it is... the home of my children and my children's children.

IMHO,
1) Israel acts as a buffer between us and that part of the Muslim world that would do us harm.

2) Israel's presence, and her interactions with radical Muslim sects, give the world a chance to see the players for who they really are.

How did one great American general put it? "When they learn to love their children more than they hate their neighbor... " You know the rest.

Another quote that, no matter how hard I try I can't find any fault with is, "If Israel put down her guns forever, she would soon be destroyed. If the other side did the same, the fighting would soon end."

Bottom line to the question,

What's in it for us?

a friend.

I can't say I think we set it up this way on purpose over the last 60 years, and I feel bad for Israel given the way things are. However, I'm glad they're there.

 

[roman3]

If someone says " it's not about the money" its always about the money.

If someone says " not to be disrespectful but" someone's about to get disrespected.

If someone says " I am not an anti-Semite. I have no issue with Jews, Judaism, Zionism, or any of the rest of it" then...

We don't get out of our alliance with Israel.

Move On...

 

[Bud Helms]

What brought this on?

Why this question?

'Seems like a legitimate question as a "general political issue".

 

[tube_ee]

Roman3

I get what you're saying, and it's often true, but it doesn't apply to me. I was anticipating a torrent of "you're an anti-Semite" attacks for even raising the question, and was trying to avoid burying a serious foreign-policy conversation under that. Obviously, from your post, I failed in that.

Beyond asking you to take my word for it, as I would take yours, in the absnce of any evidence to the contrary, I can't hope to convince you that I'm not an anti-Semite, but really, I'm not.

What are your thoughts on the question, as opposed to my motivations for posing it?

--Shannon

 

[tony pasley]

A simple answer is intell, second is early warning, third if truely needed a possible base of operations would be my Guess only a guess.

 

[Waitone]

1>influence in the middle east
2>human intel, something at which the US truly sucks
3>tripwire
4>cat's paw

 

[G-Cym]

Intel is more than enough reason to stay friends with Israel. The Israelis have decades of hard won street smarts when it comes in infiltration, interrogation, and observation. America might be top dog when it comes to electronic intel, satellites, wiretaps, and the like, but we are no where near Israel's capabilities when it comes to keeping our ears to the ground and listing to what people have to say. MOSSAD is a very good ally to have.

 

[Eghad]

"SHOW ME THE MONEY"

The Israeli presence underscores the growing importance of trade relations between the two countries. Israel-China trade climbed nearly 30% in 2006, to $3.8 billion, and is expected to reach $5 billion this year, catapulting China to the position of Israel's No. 2 trading partner, second only to the U.S. During an official visit to China last week, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he expects a further doubling in trade, to $10 billion annually, by 2010.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Major_investment_bank_issues_warning_on_0115.html

Robertson suggests a February-March 2007 timeframe for several reasons. First, there is a comparable situation to Israel's strike on Iraq's nuclear program in 1981, including Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's political troubles within Israel. Second, late February will see Iran's deadline to comply with UN Security Council Resolution 1737, and Israel could use a failure of Iran and the UN to follow through as justification for a strike.

Preisdent Bush recently removed General John Abizaid as commander of US forces in the Middle East and John Negroponte as Director of National Intelligence, both of whom have said attacking Iran is not a priority or the right move at this time. The deployment of Patriot missile batteries, highlighted in President Bush's recent White House speech on America's Iraq policy, also pointed to a need to defend against Iranian missiles.

According to the Bank of Israel, foreign investment in Israel reached an all-time high of USD 21.1 billion in 2006, up from USD 9.9b in 2005 and USD 7.2 billion in 2004.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3351343,00.html
American and European Investors have a lot of $$$ tied up in Israel.

Money talks........especially when you mess with nations pocketbooks.

 

[Red Grant]

What's in it for us?

In response:

a friend

Does a friend (without duress) spy against a friend with whom he/she claims a "special relationship"?

'Seems like a legitimate question as a "general political issue".

I agree, but there are some very insecure people out there(and here I don't mean Shannon aka tube_ee)

We don't get out of our alliance with Israel.

Would Israel get out of alliance with us if and/or when she thinks she can get a better deal with someone else?

If U.S. ever gets into a war with some other very powerful nation, and we seem to be losing, then do you think Israel should come to our aid?


If yes, then do you think she will?

A simple answer is intell,

Yes, just ask Jonathan Pollard.

second is early warning,

Woulda been helpful if we got it before 9/11.

1> influence in the middle east

Negative or postive for U.S.?

2>human intel, something at which the US truly sucks

........but still good enough to nab Jonathan Pollard?


and what does the recent Israeli performance in Lebanon imply about her vaunted human intel?

3>tripwire

Tripwire? How would Israel work as tripwire for U.S.?

Did Israel work as tripwire for 9/11?

4>cat's paw

Against whom?

 

[Eghad]

LOL@ the Israelis are our true blue friends. Why did we have to slap their hands for selling military equipment to the Chinese.

Much like the Arabs the Israelis look at it as friends with benefits.

 

[Red Grant]

Intel is more than good enough reason to stay friends with Israel.

Again, I ask, why would a friend without duress spy against a friend/benefector with whom he/she claims "a special relationship"?

.....and is that why Israel attacked U.S.S. Liberty? Because her intel is so good?

The Israelis have decades of hard won street smarts when it comes in infilitration, interrogation, and observation.

Did Israel ever employ her decades of hard won street smarts in infilitration, and observation against U.S.?



As for their interrogation skills, I might add: Not bad, but I, personally, am not overwhemingly impressed.


The best interrogators I've ever met were almost always U.S. interrogators. (I am not saying U.S. interrogators as a group are the best, just the best I've ever met were.)

The Germans and Japanese that I've met were pretty solid also.

America might be top dog when it comes to electronic intel...

Actually, I think Israel is very good when it comes to electronic intel, but U.S. is very good, too.

...but we are no where near Israel's capabilities when it comes to keeping our ears to the ground and listing to what people have to say.

You sure about that? If Israel's capabilities, especially regarding humantel is so good, then what do you make of their performance in the recent Lebanon conflict?


Overwhelming or underwhelming?

MOSSAD is a very good ally to have.

Hmmm, who recruited (turned Jonathan Pollard into a traitor against U.S.) and used him against U.S.?

 

[KSFreeman]

1. We get to pay taxes to give to Israel.
2. We get to fight Israel's wars for her.

We get all those things AND Israel controls our foreign policy! What a deal!

 

[tegemu]

I agree with the previous positive comments but IMHO the best thing we get is the prevention of a repeat of the Holocaust and total genocide of all Israeli citizens, not just the Jews. What would supporting an anti- Hitler cause have cost us, long before we entered WWII, and would it have been worth it in view of his Genocidal activity. Incidentally, his "Final Solution" killed millions of non-Jews also and I feel certain that the Arabic world's declared intention of the total destruction of Israel would be a repeat. Those that don't learn from History are doomed to repeat it, is a valid concept.

 

[buzz_knox]

Does a friend (without duress) spy against a friend with whom he/she claims a "special relationship"?

If the friend believes its national interest is at stake, yes. I have no doubt we don't have sources of our own in Israel, and in any other nation with which we have strategic interests.

 

[stevelyn]

What do we get out of our alliance with Israel?

A proxy war in Iraq where we get to expend our lives and resources and can't even use Israeli manufactured small arms ammo because of the fear of pi$$ing off the enemy.

 

[G-Cym]

Red Grant, you seem to only have one or two examples that you keep repeating over and over hoping they will sound more substantial than they really are.

 

[Samurai]

The following is all theoretical speculation:

Guys, let's not take on a negative tone, here. This is actually a very good question, one for which I don't have an answer.

I suppose that our benefit might be that Israel serves as a "decoy" of sorts for a lot of Middle-Eastern hostility towards the west.

It seems that the Middle-Eastern culture tends (maybe) to value land and religion over wealth. So, if we want to draw attention away from a truly inequitable trade situation between our country and the people of the Middle East, all we have to do is provide a target for hostility dealing with either religion or the taking of land (or both).

So, here's the situation. We (the western powers) come in and start exporting their oil, making only a VERY few Middle-Eastern people rich while the remaining population remains poor. This is injustice. So, to keep the hostility turned away from us, we simply provide an "independent" nation in the Middle-East, formed through the adverse possession of land that once belonged to the Middle-Eastern majority, and run by a people willing to violently support a religion adverse to the Middle-Eastern majority. The result is that the Middle-Eastern people violently hate the independent nation, turning their hostility toward Israel, rather than focusing on the terribly inequitable trade situation centered on our oil imports. The rich few in the Middle-East stay rich, we get our oil, the Middle-Eastern people get their scapegoat, and everybody's happy.

Make sense? Anyone with an actual education (not me) in Political Science want to chime in, here?