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What can you do if a gunsmith willfully destroyed your gun?
- Thread starter Badfinger
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Back in the days when you had to use actual film, and take it to the developer, and get it back in a week, for $X.xx, I could understand not having pictures of a (relatively) small thing.
TODAY?? If you don't have "before" pictures, you are essentially a fool. And if I were running a shop today, I would have a file of pics of everything taken "as received", and another "as shipped".
The FIRST thing the judge asks on the People's court when there is a dispute, is "do you have proof of your claim?" and they love pictures.
Sad, but true, if you are making the accusation, YOU have the burden of proof. Works the same way here in the forums. If you claim something, you should be prepared (at least minimally) to back it up.
Welcome to the 21st century, where your word means spit, but a digital pic can prove your entire case, or not...
TODAY?? If you don't have "before" pictures, you are essentially a fool. And if I were running a shop today, I would have a file of pics of everything taken "as received", and another "as shipped".
The FIRST thing the judge asks on the People's court when there is a dispute, is "do you have proof of your claim?" and they love pictures.
Sad, but true, if you are making the accusation, YOU have the burden of proof. Works the same way here in the forums. If you claim something, you should be prepared (at least minimally) to back it up.
Welcome to the 21st century, where your word means spit, but a digital pic can prove your entire case, or not...
People should stop asking why he wanted it refinished. It's not unreasonable. I thought about future refinishing options as soon as I held my new Ruger in my hand, and have researched it. Some people want things refinished in the strongest way possible to preserve them, others want them to look custom. It's very reasonable.
That said you need to find out how the damage was done and what accident could cause it.
I believe they destroyed the frame as they stripped off the type III hard coat, then seeing what they had done, and instead of immediately stopping and contacting me, they proceeded ahead and hard chromed it anyway, then very deliberately attempted to cover their tracks by fabricating modifications to the gun insinuating they were mine, the rails especially appear to have deliberately been tampered with, every pin hole demonstrating chipping and gouging, he stated that I had modified the slide stop pin, just crazy nonsensical BS!
One thing is that the word "felony" applies in criminal law, not civil law.
You will need solid proof that the gun was in your hands, and undamaged before you sent it off. Not only good photos of the undamaged areas that were later damaged, but sworn testimony that the photos are accurate and were taken on the date you say. Then you need solid evidence, again backed by sworn testimony, that the gun was damaged when you received it back.
You might be able to use small claims court and limit your filling fee as well as act as your own attorney, but if not, you will be looking at thousands of dollars in legal fees.
Now comes the really bad part. If you sue, and make some of the statements seen here, and lose, the company could very reasonably countersue for libel, slander and harassment, and you could lose. Then you would not only be out the gun, the attorney's fees and court costs, but also have to pay damages to boot. Not a good outcome, but very possible.
As for the suggestion that you start a campaign of harassment, such a thing is usually illegal, and will land you in hot water with the state.
I suggest some one-on-one discussion with the gunsmith. If that doesn't work, consult an attorney. I really don't think that will help, (lawyers don't like to take small claims because there is no payoff for them) but at least you will have someone to explain your options.
Jim
You will need solid proof that the gun was in your hands, and undamaged before you sent it off. Not only good photos of the undamaged areas that were later damaged, but sworn testimony that the photos are accurate and were taken on the date you say. Then you need solid evidence, again backed by sworn testimony, that the gun was damaged when you received it back.
You might be able to use small claims court and limit your filling fee as well as act as your own attorney, but if not, you will be looking at thousands of dollars in legal fees.
Now comes the really bad part. If you sue, and make some of the statements seen here, and lose, the company could very reasonably countersue for libel, slander and harassment, and you could lose. Then you would not only be out the gun, the attorney's fees and court costs, but also have to pay damages to boot. Not a good outcome, but very possible.
As for the suggestion that you start a campaign of harassment, such a thing is usually illegal, and will land you in hot water with the state.
I suggest some one-on-one discussion with the gunsmith. If that doesn't work, consult an attorney. I really don't think that will help, (lawyers don't like to take small claims because there is no payoff for them) but at least you will have someone to explain your options.
Jim
I don't understand any of this. New gun needs refinish? Ugly finish from factory? Why buy it? You say the shop DELIBERATELY ruined the gun? Pretty serious charge. Why would any professional shop run by folks with half a brain do such a thing?
I wasn't there. I haven't seen the gun before or after. I haven't heard both sides. Not sure I've heard the truth on the one side I've heard. Whole situation is too bizarre for comment.
Good luck to all involved.
I am OUT!
I wasn't there. I haven't seen the gun before or after. I haven't heard both sides. Not sure I've heard the truth on the one side I've heard. Whole situation is too bizarre for comment.
Good luck to all involved.
I am OUT!
Back in the days when you had to use actual film, and take it to the developer, and get it back in a week, for $X.xx, I could understand not having pictures of a (relatively) small thing.
TODAY?? If you don't have "before" pictures, you are essentially a fool. And if I were running a shop today, I would have a file of pics of everything taken "as received", and another "as shipped".
The FIRST thing the judge asks on the People's court when there is a dispute, is "do you have proof of your claim?" and they love pictures.
Sad, but true, if you are making the accusation, YOU have the burden of proof. Works the same way here in the forums. If you claim something, you should be prepared (at least minimally) to back it up.
Welcome to the 21st century, where your word means spit, but a digital pic can prove your entire case, or not...
Uhh, nonsense, the pictures once posted will settle that kind of talk down, you'd have to be an idiot to believe that a pistol purchased new in July could develop that kind of damage in less then five months! Also, it was four attempts to refinish by this outfit, if as you say I was such a fool, them they too are even more so, they four time stripped that gun down and nary a word about this or that, I personally stripped the gun down the first three times and the frame was spotless!
I will get my pics up here in the next day or so, as for the folks who think it odd and unlikely to be intentional, keep in mind that they had fully disassembled the pistol and then fully reassembled the pistol, both before and after they saw what they had done! Then they deliberately chose to stick it to me by attempting to fabricate modifications that would in their mind make it look a certain way, then the shipped it back to me!
Thats deliberate in my book, and it would be in your's too if they had done it to you!
Thats deliberate in my book, and it would be in your's too if they had done it to you!
as to photos I have them and will gladly post them once someone offers to shrink them down to the required 244 KB
Not sure what resizing you are talking about...
Upload your pics to a hosting site like PhotoBucket, TinyPic, or any of the other umpteen choices, and post the link here...
fin
Hunter Customs
New member
Also, it was four attempts to refinish by this outfit, if as you say I was such a fool, them they too are even more so, they four time stripped that gun down and nary a word about this or that, I personally stripped the gun down the first three times and the frame was spotless!
You kind of lost me on this statement by using the terminology "stripped".
Are you referring to preparing the gun to be re-finished by stripping the old finish (paint) from the gun or are you referring to a total disassemble of the gun and it's components?
You state that "I personally stripped the gun down the first three times and the frame was spotless" then why did the frame need re-finished?
As stated pictures would be great.
I don't paint guns and don't like painted guns especially 1911's.
I've sent many aluminum 1911 frames out for hardchroming with never a problem, so it can be done.
I can't imagine buying a special edition Colt and then sending it to be refinished...
I'm sure the frame was damaged if it took 4 attempts to remove the finish and reapply a new finish. I bet they tried to use some chemical to strip the finish or prep the frame and this caused the current damage.
I'm sure the frame was damaged if it took 4 attempts to remove the finish and reapply a new finish. I bet they tried to use some chemical to strip the finish or prep the frame and this caused the current damage.
buckhorn_cortez
New member
You kind of lost me on this statement by using the terminology "stripped".
A little confusing as he is using "stripped" to indicate breaking down the gun and also for removal of the Ceracoat...but, let's approach this logically, he wanted it hard chromed and the frame is anodized aluminum with a Ceracoat finish.
With that as the basis...
1. The Ceracoat would have to be stripped off of the frame.
2. The anodizing on the frame would have to be stripped after the Ceracoat in order to electroless nickel plate the frame prior to hard chroming.
So, there were two potential places that stripping is required. The Ceracoat can be removed chemically with a paint stripper containing methylene chloride without damaging the aluminum.
Anodizing can be removed with sodium hydroxide (caustic soda), or a chromic-phosphoric, or phosphoric acid and sodium bichromate mixture.
The caustic soda method can lead to pitting if it is left on the anodizing too long as it will begin to eat into the aluminum after dissolving the anodizing.
If there are pits in the aluminum frame, that leads me to believe that the caustic soda method was used as something as simple as an oven cleaner can be used, while the other two methods require buying and mixing chemicals that are used in a heated bath...
Or, the smart way - send the gun to the firm doing the hard chrome and asking them to remove all of the finishes. Of course, that costs money, which in turn, reduces or eliminates any type of profit - making it more attractive to the gunsmith to attempt finish removal (including the anodizing) in-house.
Oven cleaner (the cheap way) left on the anodizing too long or not neutralized correctly = pitting...
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"...intend to talk with an attorney..." That. Take your cheque book and be prepared to pay a bundle. You'll have to prove every one of your claims.
"...criminal complaint for felony destruction of property..." I believe you'd have to prove intent.
However, discussing any of this on an internet forum is ill advised if you've talked to a lawyer about suing.
"...criminal complaint for felony destruction of property..." I believe you'd have to prove intent.
However, discussing any of this on an internet forum is ill advised if you've talked to a lawyer about suing.
Thanks for all of the interest, please guy's, do keep in mind how you would respond to having a firm flatly muck up a simple refinishing job not once, but four consecutive times in three and half months, including the final time where they had destroyed the frame in the process and then brazenly attempted to pawn it off as your doing, I'm more then certain that to the individual, you'd all be jazzed to say the least!
This matter has been resolved, the company in question both agreed to replace the gun, and refund all of my costs(which have been quite considerable). The technician has been fired by the owner, as well he should have been, he intentionally altered the gun in an attempt at creating a narrative favorable to his position! As I have said, I have used this outfit several times before and they have been superb, which should explain I would think for those of you who believe photos before and after, are an automatic requisite, why I didn't, though I do have before and after images of some of the damage. I simply had no reason to expect any issues whatsoever, which of course is what made this all the more discomfiting!
For those of you in the dark I am sorry to keep you there, its just that I had hoped this would resolve itself, and it has, but the primary issue was the technician fabricating modifications to the frame and its components in a brazen attempt at covering his tracks, and then with the frame obviously now fatally flawed he proceeded to hard chrome the entire pistol anyway, and then shipped it back to me with his little note attached insinuating my culpability in the demise of my new gun!
So, barring anything else taking place, this matter is closed, though I will still take up the kind member above who has offered to post some images of my destroyed frame for you to look over!
This matter has been resolved, the company in question both agreed to replace the gun, and refund all of my costs(which have been quite considerable). The technician has been fired by the owner, as well he should have been, he intentionally altered the gun in an attempt at creating a narrative favorable to his position! As I have said, I have used this outfit several times before and they have been superb, which should explain I would think for those of you who believe photos before and after, are an automatic requisite, why I didn't, though I do have before and after images of some of the damage. I simply had no reason to expect any issues whatsoever, which of course is what made this all the more discomfiting!
For those of you in the dark I am sorry to keep you there, its just that I had hoped this would resolve itself, and it has, but the primary issue was the technician fabricating modifications to the frame and its components in a brazen attempt at covering his tracks, and then with the frame obviously now fatally flawed he proceeded to hard chrome the entire pistol anyway, and then shipped it back to me with his little note attached insinuating my culpability in the demise of my new gun!
So, barring anything else taking place, this matter is closed, though I will still take up the kind member above who has offered to post some images of my destroyed frame for you to look over!
Jim Watson
New member
This matter has been resolved, the company in question both agreed to replace the gun, and refund all of my costs(which have been quite considerable). The technician has been fired by the owner,
This would get it rated as "good customer service" on some of the boards.
This would get it rated as "good customer service" on some of the boards.
As it should have been Jim. the issue was the absolutely dishonest attempt to frame me for the destruction, which coupled to an earlier heated conversation, left me in a very tough spot, and completely unable to extend further trust!
Thankfully that has all been rectified, and following through as promised, will reinstate my trust fully with these guys....
This matter has been resolved, the company in question both agreed to replace the gun, and refund all of my costs(which have been quite considerable). The technician has been fired by the owner, as well he should have been, he intentionally altered the gun in an attempt at creating a narrative favorable to his position!
Glad it's been resolved. The recovery would be to restore the plaintiff to to a position he would have been had defendant not harmed him. The post indicates that that has been done and that the plaintiff has been made whole.
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