What can and what can't a .38 special do?

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Example: Would you consider a weapon that produces 1323 Ft Lbs of energy and zips along at 3100FPS as having impressive lethality?? Be careful before answering, it's a trick question.
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Taking the kinetic energy and velocity, and solving for mass, you're talking about a 62 grain projectile. I'd consider a hit at that speed from a projectile of that size to be "lethal", depending of course on where you hit the person.

What was the "trick" part of the question? Am I about to start a debate on the effectiveness of the 5.56mm NATO round, or was there something more blatant that I missed?
 
I don't want to try to change the direction of this very interesting thread, but I would appreciate your thoughts on this question:

What is the REAL difference between the .38 spcl and the 9mm Luger in terms of effectiveness (I don't know what measure would be appropriate - muzzle energy maybe?)?

I see so much criticism of the 9mm being underpowered, yet the .38 special seldom earns such disrespect. I own both calibers and haven't lost a second's sleep about protecting myself, but maybe I'm missing something.:confused:
 
The .38 Special is not underpwered. It has proved lethal over the last 113 years. The biggest difference between 9mm Luger and .38 Special is velocity and muzzle energy.
 
The .38 Special is not underpwered. It has proved lethal over the last 113 years. The biggest difference between 9mm Luger and .38 Special is velocity and muzzle energy.
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Willmc - When I look at the Lyman Reloading 47 Ed. They show velocities of a 9mm 147 grain lead bullet around 950-960 fps.

Similarly they list a 146 grain .38 spcl lead bullet around 900-920 fps.

I know there are hundreds of combinations that one could compare between the two calibers, but when you average all scenarios the muzzle velocities look pretty close.

Maybe the biggest difference is that 9mm performs better with lighter bullets, and maybe .38 handles a broader range of weights better than the 9mm. I don't really know for sure - just thinking out loud.
 
9mm is for all intents and purpose the same size bullet as the 38 spcl, .355 vs .357. The 38 spcl started as a black powder round and the 9mm started as a pistol round using smokeless powder at twice the pressure. It is pushing basically the same bullet faster than the 38 spcl and that is a plus. The 38 spcl revolver has a wider weight range and can shoot a wider range in bullet configurations so points to the 38 spcl. In my guns my 38s are more accurate than my 9mm so points to the 38. On the other had shooting at 100 yards I only have half the hold over with the 9mm so award points to the 9. I get more penetration shooting my hardball 9's than I do with my hardball 38's so points to the 9. Fact is you don't want me shooting at you with either but I will be using the 38 because it is more accurate and in my guns more reliable. My P94 has a bad habit of failing to eject all the time but my revolvers never fail to keep shooting, In my house that is a big point to 38.

38vs9mm.jpg


38 spcl the maximum pressure for standard loads is 17,000PSI. Standard +P loading commonly around 20,000PSI. Common weights for the .38 Special round will vary from about 110 to 158 Grains. Length of a loaded cartridge is 1.55 inches.

9mm the maximum pressure for a standard load is 35,000PSI. Standard +P loading runs close to 38,500PSI. Common weights for the round 115 to 147 Grains. Length of a loaded cartridge is 1.169 inches.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition Ballistics
Round Type Weight Muzzle Energy ft/lbs. Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm +p FMJFN 124 465 1300
.38 +p LV JHP 125 306 1050

If I made a mistake that is on me, see your reloading manuals for more up to date data, I'm only speaking generalities and from my personal experience.
 
Peter S you have a point and that is one reason I choose to carry a J frame as apposed to a .380 acp is because the .38 Special has a wider variety of bullet weights. That is just one of the many reasons I choose .38 over .380. I would say most 9mm loadings are hotter then most .38 Special loadings but if you get into high weigh prejectiles per loading then it does come close to evening up. Buffalo Bore for example their 158 grain LSWCHP is 1,000 F.P.S with 330 Ft-Lbs. M.E. and their 147 grain +p+ is 1175 F.P.S with 451 Ft-Lbs muzzle energy. That being said and with one of the hottest loading manufacturers.
 
To get back to the question the original poster asked"What can and can't a .38 cal do?". It can't fire a 44 sp:Dl. It can stop a man as well as any other round if the shooter does his job:D. More rounds down range does not insure more good hits unless as a shooter you do your job:rolleyes:. Sight picture, breath control,trigger control.
 
DEPUTY276 it seems more like if it isnt .44 Special or .44 Magnum it isnt lethal coming out more than anything else. I havent really seen a valid point on what .38 Special can and cant do or modern bullet designs or the 5.56 round or to much of anything else yet. If you want to go off real world experience based off numbers the .44 Magnum doesnt do as well as others at O.S.S. which unless you have been out shooting alot of people with different guns is most of what you have to go on. A big slow bullet is no more lethal then a lighter fast moving bullet. I would say a 125 grain .357 Magnum JHP has proven that without arguement. The fact that .38 Special has been in constant production for 113 years and is extremely popular has no merit? The fact that the .44 Special has never been as successful is just bad luck? The fact that the U.S. Military uses the 5.56 means its ineffective and they have no interest in giving their soldiers an effective weapon? I would say the 5.56 has dispatched more then enough enemy soldiers to prove that it is highly lethal.

I will share real world experience. We trap feral hogs and at times use different guns and ammo combinations to finish them. I had a Charter Bulldog loaded with 200 grain Winchester Silver Tip's. Head shot shot went in right above the ear went through the brain and hit the skull on the other side and stopped. This was a shot from around 2 feet. Hog weighed 300 lbs. Another time finish shot was given with a Ruger SP 101 loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 grain LSWCHP +P delivered to almost the same spot on the head. Bullet entered breaking the skull, passed through the brain, clipped the top of the jaw bone shattering it, shattering about a 3 inch wide circle of skull and exited the other side. This shot was delivered at just about an identical distance and identical shot placement. The .44 Special did mushroom rather large but it did not completely penetrate. The .38 Special did mushroom,by evidence in the wound path, and still perforated the skul after hitting multiple spots of heavy bone.

Point being that just because you prefer big bore bullets doesnt mean you should dismiss the others. If you load your gun with reduced power .44 Magnums then wouldnt that in effect be the same thing as a .44 Special +P? I dont understand all the attempted points at modern bullet hollow point ammunition from someone who chooses a hard cast flat nose bullet for HD/SD. Again not trying to be overly argumentative or rude but I keep missing your points apparently.
 
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I'm not sure why anyone would say +P loads are obselete and unnecessary, yet shoot or carry 44 Magnums. Even a light 44 Magnum is like a 44 Special +P+++.
 
"To get back to the question the original poster asked "What can and can't a .38 cal do?". It can't fire a 44 spl:D"

We have a bingo!!! :D:D:D
 
I'm not sure why anyone would say +P loads are obselete and unnecessary, yet shoot or carry 44 Magnums. Even a light 44 Magnum is like a 44 Special +P+++.

There are no warnings in a .44 magnum manual about NOT using +P ammo. :D
 
"Ah, but now you're getting into "knockdown power" or "stopping power", not simply "lethality". I would bet that the overwhelming majority of people who take a solid torso hit from a NATO 5.56 round will die in short order (<30 minutes) without competent medical attention. That makes it "lethal" in my book.'

Knockdown power is a myth. NO bullet can knock you down. If it could, the guy firing it would also be knocked down.:)

And you would LOSE that bet (and your life) if you were shooting at skinnies in Somalia. :D

The simple fact is NO weapon is a "death ray", no matter how many "+s" you have in front of it's caliber.
 
"well, according to physics, a pencil eraser at rest will not hurt as much as a pencil eraser traveling 2,000fps...."

Awww...but is it a hollowpoint eraser or a round nose eraser? It matters!!! ;)
 
"If you want to go off real world experience based off numbers the .44 Magnum doesnt do as well as others at O.S.S. which unless you have been out shooting alot of people with different guns is most of what you have to go on. A big slow bullet is no more lethal then a lighter fast moving bullet. I would say a 125 grain .357 Magnum JHP has proven that without arguement."

Let me take you back in the Peabody Wayback machine to the days of the Old West. Or if you prefer, to the cemetaries in the Old West. Now count how many graves are occupied by folks who were shot with the .44/40 and .45 Long Colt. Quite a few. Those bullets were zipping along at pretty much the same velocity as the .44 Special. Now move up to WW1 and later to guys hit by the .45ACP. Funny thing, but there were no complaints from users of the 1911A1 of the round not doing it's job.

Now move to the police departments who were using the .38 Special in ANY loading, since the military pretty much abandoned the caliber for most uses.
LOTS of complaints back then of it not doing it's job after multiple solid torso hits. The .357 Magnum was supposed to be the savior of the .38 Special, but the police trained on .38 Wadcutters and carried the .357 magnum loads. Bad idea. The difference in recoil and muzzle flash was so great that after the first shot the cop was pretty much blinded and useless. Plus the only really good performance was with the 125 grain bullet.

I don't know what "real world" numbers you are using to complain about the .44 Magnum, but I think the names Marshall and Sanow may be the culprits. ALL of their findings have been debunked. The only reason they scored the .357 Magnum so high is because there were more shootings with it than any other caliber AT THE TIME. So the data is skewed. Plus they were reportedly connected to Cor-Bon. So they made sure the "numbers" came out to benefit Cor-Bon. Now that .40 S&W has become the caliber of choice for most PDs and civilians, I expect it's numbers to far exceed the .357 Magnum. Plus it's a much more controllable loading.
 
Themilitary failures were NOT with the .38 Special and the multiple torso hits were with a LRN projectile going very slow. That is my point about Marshal and Sanow. Unless you have gone first hand and seen all handgun wound effects you cant really debunk any caliber. The .38 Special rode in holsters longer then anything else. Most did not train with .38's and then load .357's because most just carried .38's. How ever many people were killed in the old west doesnt have any merit here for a number of reasons. Biggest IMO is because thats what was available then. There were no 9mm's, .357 Magnums, .357 Sigs, .40 S&W, 10mm. To speak of modern bullet design but then speak of old west lethality is kind of confusing?

I will not use the time machine I will instead use historical production figures.
9mm Luger= Constant production since 1902
.38 Special= Constant production since 1899
.357 Magnum= Constant production since 1934

If there were any problem with these cartridges they would not have stayed in production this length of time and still be as widely used as they are. Every handgun bullet has failed at one time or another. The progression of ammo and powder charge does not mean that a round because it has changed from it original loading is obselete or not a good SD round. .45 Colt, 44/40, .44 Special, .44 Russian and so on have not gained more usage these days because in fact compared to todays calibers and loadings these would be more considered obselete. Good rounds sure. Better then what is available now No. The .38 Special rode in police holsters for more then 70 years. During that time there were more powerful alternatives but the .38 Special still held strong.
I would also add that all I have ever seenshot with a .44 Magnum have been game animals. That being said I saw a big boar shot with a .44 Magnum drop and get right back up and tree the shooter gashing his calf open in the process.
I have seen a bigger hot shot with a 10mm with similar shot placement and drop on spot and not get back up. The variables are to big.
 
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LOL...there are a LOT of cartridges still in production that are obsolete. Perhaps people should arm themselves with a .38 Long Colt or a .32 Short Colt, or a .32 S&W Long or a 9MM Largo or a 7.63 Mauser or one of the numerous other obsolete cartridges. Just because it has a long production run, doesn't give it any advantage or make it more deadly than another caliber. The .22 Long Rifle has been around longer than any of the ones you listed. Gonna use that as your primary defensive weapon? Considering the number of .38 Special and .357 Magnum guns made and still being made, it's no surprise that the round still exists. That DOESN'T make it the best round for personal defense.
 
It doesnt make it the best but it does make a better point then trying to use old west graveyards to make a point for large bores. You do alot of dancing around on points your trying to make. Alot do arm themselves with those rounds listed and I wouldnt tell anyone not to arm themselves with what they could because my personal opinion views it as not the best. You choose .44 magnum but choose not to load it to its potential. Is that ideal? Not to me but it is to you. I never claimed that the .38 Special was the BEST SD cartridge. I dont think there is a best. All good calibers have their positives and negatives.. You exactly stated a point that is valid. With the numbers of .38 and .357 revolvers STILL IN PRODUCTION. If they were not a good SD option they would not still be holding their own among a massive auto loader market. How's the .44 Special doing these days?
 
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And I am not bashing .44 Special by any means I like the round and have owned revolvers chambered for it but to me it didnt offer any advantage to a .38 Special in a snub nosed revolver. Ammunition is to scarce (unless I buy offline) and expensive.
 
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