What caliber for...

C

chaim

New member
I bet you thought I was going to say 'bear'

So, in about a week I'm finally going to be finished teaching summer school and for the last week of summer before I go back for "Professional Development" I will actually have a week of summer vacation where I can actually go on vacation. I plan to do some camping. I've also thought about visiting some family. I may put both together and go down to Ashville, NC.

The entire trip won't be just visiting family in Ashville, and Ashville itself will be a base of operations for other trips (in fact, if I go the whole week, I may also bring a tent for a night or two elsewhere in the state).

I may bring my kayak or an inflatable boat. I haven't done any kayaking in water moccasin territory yet, and to be honest, they kind of freak me out a bit (kayaking a few inches off the water surface in the territory of a big, poisonous, and by reputation, somewhat aggressive snake, what's there to be a little freaked out about? :eek: ). So, I definitely want a gun with me while on the water.

None of my guns that are of a material suited to a wet environment are cheap/disposable enough (either they are too expensive or I like them too much) to use on a body of water on a boat type that may flip. None of those I'd be OK using in such an environment are made of a suitable material (polymer or stainless steel) but are rather easily rusted blued steel.

So, I'm thinking about a stainless, aluminum or polymer .22 revolver. Is .22lr enough for snake? Is .22mag better, or do I need a bigger caliber? Is snake shot (whether .22 or bigger) suitable for water moccasin? What about alligator? I'm a bit less freaked out by them, they aren't super common in NC, and while they can be big and dangerous (especially if my kayak overturns), they are a bit shy and generally avoid people. Still, I don't want to be alligator food, so should I go bigger than .22 because of the alligators.

I'm thinking about a S&W 317 Kit Gun (3"), a 3" S&W 63 (basically the stainless version), a S&W 43c (it could double as a training gun for my 442), a Ruger LCR, or a Charter Arms Pathfinder.

Or would I just be better off to just avoid kayaks or inflatable boats on rivers, lakes or ponds further south than central VA? :D Note, with MD's waiting period, I won't be able to get any of these on time for this trip and I may have to bring my S&W 442 (or something else that isn't as suited to kayaking/possibly going overboard) this time around, so maybe that is the best advice this trip. However, I got to thinking and I do want something appropriate for this use (kayaking in water moccasin and alligator territory) for the future.

If I don't do any kayaking this trip, I still may do some fishing, but that doesn't require as water resistant a gun since it will be far less likely to go into the water.
 
Two different recommendations...125gr .357mag, or one of my .38s with a mix of snake shot and JHP.

I have always wondered about snake shot. A snake isn't a very wide target, and I suspect you really need to hit it in the head, making them an even smaller target, since I've seen even other more garden variety snakes injured (as in, hit by a car and they keep going), they can take quite a beating (they are quite tough). How much spread do you get with snake shot? Does it really buy a little margin of error? And then, in a pistol, it isn't a very large gauge shot. Snakes can be pretty tough, and moccasins can be pretty big. Is snake shot really large/powerful enough to do the job quickly and effectively with such a snake? In fact, that was one reason I was thinking a .22lr or .22mag. I can have a solid shot (larger than snake shot) for some snake stopping power, but I have more shots than the typical 5 or 6 shot revolver if I miss. I definitely do want a revolver. It seems to me that should I end up submerged, it will be a little more forgiving of the less than ideal conditions.

As for the current trip, I have .38s and .357s that can work (though, other than my 442, they aren't ideal so far as material). If I do get a .22 for the future for this purpose, I'd likely carry a 2nd gun (maybe the 442) loaded with more appropriate ammo for human attackers since all the guns I'm considering are a good size/weight for a BUG (other than the 63 anyway, and the 442 could be the BUG in that case).
 
Snakes aren't an issue. They aren't gonna climb in the kayak and if you see one on shore and have time to aim and shoot at it you have time to step away from it. It is the ones you don't see that get you and a gun is too late. It would probably be illegal to shoot one anyway, even a venomous one.

Gators in NC? Especilly in the mountains near Ashville. That is more likely bear country. It is extremely rare for gators to be spotted north of the southern 1/4 of GA and most of those are pets that people release into the wild after they get too big to care for them.

Unless in black bear country I carry a G26 or G19 in 9mm outdoors including kayaking. In bear country a G29 with hot 10mm loads. Any Glock is pretty weatherproof and more reliable than a revolver in harsh muddy conditions.

I wouldn't want a 22 period. The bore size is too small to be helpful with snake shot and the real threat is 2 legged. Think Deliverance:eek:. If you're too young google the movie reviews.

Take one of your 38 or 357 revolvers unless you just want to buy something new. If it makes you feel better load the 1st shot with snake shot. But in my opinion that is one less effective round you have to deal with the real threat.
 
Here in FL, water mocs will crawl up into a kayak or boat, or even drop from trees into one. They are fairly aggressive, especially if it is mating season or you are near their nest.

A 38 with shot capsules can be great for close range (~7-10 FEET). Your scenario is about the only one I can think of where one of the 410 revolvers might be ideal.
 
If I can find it again I will post the link to a story and photos of a black bear, young I think maybe 200 lbs opening a car door as if human, looking around and finding no goodies leaving, in Ashville.
The Nanthala(misspelled) and other national forest I have seen some black bears.
Some reports suggest they are on the increase. A hot loaded125 grain .357 can have some pretty impressive ballistics but I might consider, a 160 grain load or even 180 if you can find them or load them.
I would prefer a stainless, these days, I think, especially in damp environment.
 
Reckon I overkill it on everything then. I'd be totin my Smith 329PD 4" Airlite with full house 240g white box same as I do on the street out here in AZ. So I'd say 357 and yer good. The gators would be my big concern personally they are bout as bad as whistle pigs (wild boar) back home. I grew up in water moccasin turf back in south east Ohio and straight up every one I ever saw I just chucked a rock or two at it while they were a ways off and it went the other way. Always kept a couple in my back pocket for just that reason. Keep yer eyes open and chuck rocks at em at first then if they come closer blast them.
 
If bear is a consideration, forget the hollow points. Get anything other than HP and 158 grn or heavier, and take some snake shot for when you are on the water.

38 Spcl cases loaded with snake shot work wonders on copperhead around the house in Central Texas.

We have rattlers around the homestead, but I don't shoot them, just relocate them a half mile or so away.
 
spend a few bucks and get some snake shot for both the .22 and the .357.

SHOOT some of it, so you know what it does, and does not do at various ranges. Remember shot in your pistol gives you an effective range of feet, not yards.

.357 Magnum shotshells are not loaded to magnum speeds, (it screws with the pattern, which is already messed up being fired through a rifled barrel), they are loaded in magnum cases, but not at magnum speeds.

Pistol shot is SMALL, #8 is about the biggest usually found and #9 can be had, (.22mag, I think) .22LR can be #11 or even smaller "dust" and "fine dust".

Shoot some, at tin cans (pop cans) Your max range should be the range at which you can get several pellets IN the can (meaning they will punch through one side, at least. That will do for a snake with a head shot.

Snakes are only dangerous at contact distance and anything other than a head shot will not kill them instantly. A snake at 10 yards is not dangerous. At 6 feet, it could be, at 2 feet, it is. If a gator is a possible threat, study the gator and learn the right place to hit to stop it. You really don't want to just wound one, IF you HAVE to shoot it.

I'm thinking a decent choice would be a .357 with 3 speedloaders, one for shot, one of solids for bear/gator, and one with hollowpoints for defense against humans. Take more ammo if desired.

have a good trip!
 
Go down to the Nantahala to do some kayaking. Don't be concerned about gators. Cotton mouths can and will climb up your oar on occasion. Happened to me twice. Bears will rarely bother you. It's always wise moving through the woods with more than one person. Make a little noise to let the bears know you're coming.
 
First off I live about 25 miles west of Asheville NC. A good .357 would be your best bet because your most dangerous wild life you could deal with is feral dogs that joined into coyote packs, next is two-legged animals that can prey on tourist out on their own away from L.E and cell service. Neither are that common. Rattle snakes and copperheads are around but if you are paying attention to your surroundings they are no problem. Yes we have bears and other predators they are smart enough to not like being around people except in Asheville where people knowingly or not feed them. North Carolina is an open carry state so when in the country you can have it without a cover but in Asheville keep it covered because way to many progressives that will freak out seeing a gun.
 
Sounds like you need a S&W Governor. .410 shotshells & .45 Colt Cor-Bon loads. I have a Judge and it makes short work of rattlesnakes.
 
Yea!!! Snakes!!!

I remember when the snakes/bears debate used to be 50/50. Now bears have pulled so far ahead I thought snakes had no chance at all. Good for you.

Maybe the Taurus Judge actually DOES have a purpose.

I remember shooting a Coke can at 15 FEET with a .22 shot shell and it did NOT knock it over although we found many tiny nicks in the paint.

At an indoor range one shooter fired 10 shots at a 50 foot smallbore target (10 little bulls and a sighter bull in the middle) with .22 shot shells. Our spotting scopes said there were no hits in the target at all but when we reeled the target back in the target was peppered with tiny holes too small to see with the spotting scope. There was absolutely NO concentration of the tiny holes, they were totally evenly distributed over the paper.

I'm not a real fan of .22 shot shells.
 
Before I comment on some specific posts, lets talk about some of the themes seen in several:

I do know that Ashville is bear country. Pretty much the entire East Coast is black bear country, and they will be more prevalent (pretty common in some areas) the more you go west towards the mountains. I'm not too worried. I don't plan to bring just one gun. This thread is for my kayaking gun. There are too many bear threads, and I already have a couple options for when I'm at the campsite. I'm debating between my large for summer camping S&W 625MG in .45LC, making it one of the rare occasions I carry my S&W 65LS (too nice to knock around in camping carry) or I may trust my 3" Rossi 461. I also may just bring a .38spl snub or two this trip (since with MD waiting periods I can't pick up anything I would buy today until I got home from my trip), in which case I'd be relying on just bear spray for bear defense. Actually, the fact that I'll have another gun for general/bear defense is part of why the .22s I'm considering are pretty lightweight (other than the 63): it can be used as a BUG to the larger revolver.

If I get a .22 as a snake/kayaking gun, it won't be used with snake shot. I guess the confusion is because I asked too many things, and didn't really differentiate in my posts, I wasn't completely clear exactly what I was asking. I am interested in hearing about snake shot efficacy, but if I use it, it will be in a bigger revolver. I don't trust it (but am open to being sold) to be enough even in a larger caliber. I'm thinking about .22lr or .22mag as an alternative to snake shot. The .22 caliber projectile is bigger than any snake shot (if it is big enough, that will be comforting if I encounter an aggressive water moccasin), but unlike taking a .38/.357 I will have more shots if I miss my small target (though at the distances where it would be needed to use it, there may not be many misses). I'm not considering an auto for this role, only revolvers, because (correct, misguided, or not) I'm thinking they'd be more likely to work, and easier to dry out all the small parts, if I overturned and it was submerged, so .22lr or .22mag is the only way to substantially increase capacity.


Gators in NC? Especilly in the mountains near Ashville.
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They are not found anywhere near Ashville, but they are in the eastern part of the state. The northernmost part of their range is the NC portion of The Great Dismal Swamp which is on the VA/NC border. While most of my trip is to Ashville to see family, and I will be keeping my camper there, if I take the longer version of the trip (I may go just to see family for a few days, or I may go all/most of the week to see the state) I plan to also bring a tent for an overnight side trip or two. I plan to go east on my way home and stop to kayak either in The Great Dismal Swamp or take a side trip to VA Beach and do my kayaking there.

Here in FL, water mocs will crawl up into a kayak or boat, or even drop from trees into one.
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Cotton mouths can and will climb up your oar on occasion.
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The second is what I was worried about. Freaks me out a bit, but if I stay alert I can probably take care of them without shooting, and reserve shooting for the aggressive ones. The first quote is worse than I thought and if true in the area I'm going to be in, I may have to rethink any kayaking south of Richmond (call me a wimp if you want, I do not like aggressive snakes).

If I can find it again I will post the link to a story and photos of a black bear, young I think maybe 200 lbs opening a car door as if human, looking around and finding no goodies leaving, in Ashville.
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Yeah, I don't even have a tin can camper. My camper is a pop-up with tent sides. I never cook in the camper, though I bought it used and it is always possible there are food smells left over from the previous owner that are too weak for my human nose but not a bear's. If I wasn't camping I'd bring my M&P40c or 1911SC for carry while visiting, but I'll probably be bringing my 3" Rossi 461. I don't 100% trust it yet (my 2" 461 has had problems), but it can be loaded with regular .38+P JHP and it is small enough for easy CCW when I go into town, yet I can load it with heavy Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman rounds while camping in bear country.

38 Spcl cases loaded with snake shot work wonders on copperhead around the house in Central Texas.

We have rattlers around the homestead, but I don't shoot them, just relocate them a half mile or so away.
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Rattle snakes and copperheads are around but if you are paying attention to your surroundings they are no problem.
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Yeah, we have timber rattlers and copperheads around here. Those I'm not worried about. They are quite people shy, and not very aggressive (not at all). For the most part, you are safe if you look where you step. You can be 2-3ft from them and they'll just slither away. They are usually only dangerous if you step on them. It is the snakes I don't know 1st hand, and that carry a reputation for aggression (water moccasins) that I'm a bit scared of. The few times I've seen copperheads or rattlers in the wild it was actually kind of cool.

North Carolina is an open carry state so when in the country you can have it without a cover but in Asheville keep it covered because way to many progressives that will freak out seeing a gun.
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Yeah, my family members I'm going to visit in Ashville would probably totally and completely freak out if they knew I was carrying near them (or probably at all) so I will be quite careful to conceal well just for family harmony.
 
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.22 revolvers have been popular as kit guns for a long time and there is no reason they won't work well today. I would feel well armed against snakes with your 442 but a nice .22 would be a fun addition to your collection.

I agree with others about the ineffectiveness of snake shot from a .22 but a good old lead bullet out of a .22 works just fine. I watched a fellow empty his .22 revolver at a rattlesnake dusting it with shot doing nothing but making it mad while a friend took careful aim with his .22 and put a 40 grain lead bullet through its neck just behind the head killing it.

Your kayak paddle would work in almost every situation you need to protect yourself from a snake and the 442 would cover you for the rare time you might have to shoot. As a bonus, the 442 would be better than a .22 against other potential threats. I don't carry specifically for snake protection but have killed two timber rattlers with a 642 using the defensive loads that happened to be in it, another rattler with a G26, a rattler with a bush hog and copperheads around the house with a shovel, bush ax or hoe.

Have fun on your trip and don't be too worried about snakes.
 
I think .22lr would be fine for what you are describing. No need for .22 Mag, unless you just want to.

If you spring for a S&W model 317 or 63, you may find that you consider them too expensive to risk going "in the drink". I have a 317 and it has a lanyard pin under the grips, which I would HIGHLY recommend putting to use in this situation.




Some other possible candidates to consider would be a Charter, Rossi Plinker or Ruger LCRx. All should be somewhat less expensive than a new Smith.
 
The safe bet is a 357 because there is a chance of bears. I would have bear spray too and snake shot. Tons of snakes out now. A lot of rattlers but in general they wont bother you unless you step on them or get too close. I can't speak for water snakes and such but they don't sound fun.

It is extremely rare for gators to be spotted north of the southern 1/4 of GA and most of those are pets that people release into the wild after they get too big to care for them.
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They are all over the place where I live and are in a few ponds/intercoastal waterway near my house. No clue if they are near ashville though as I live on the coast in wilmington.
 
I think .22lr would be fine for what you are describing. No need for .22 Mag, unless you just want to.

If you spring for a S&W model 317 or 63, you may find that you consider them too expensive to risk going "in the drink". I have a 317 and it has a lanyard pin under the grips, which I would HIGHLY recommend putting to use in this situation.




Some other possible candidates to consider would be a Charter, Rossi Plinker or Ruger LCRx. All should be somewhat less expensive than a new Smith.
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.22mag v. .22lr, I'd probably go .22lr though I am still thinking a .22mag would be fun. Both would be low on recoil and could be a good J-frame training/practice gun. Both should be fun at the range, though the .22mag would be a little more fun (the extra recoil and noise would make it a little more fun). The .22lr would be cheaper though, and cheap practice is a good thing (and I don't have any .22lr handguns right now, which is one thing that puts both the S&W 63 and 617 high on the list).

The prices of the 63 and 617 are getting high (and until I added 1911s back to my carry list they were above the price cut off for my defensive guns). It is the lanyard loop that puts them on my list, and may put them over the others. Worst case, if the kayak tips, and the gun comes out of my holster, would I rather lose a $300-500 gun, or have to dry out a $700+ gun? I'd rather keep, but have to dry out the expensive gun. Though, it is still less than current replacement prices for my S&W 65LS and S&W 625MG so it is less than the guns I don't want to bring due to price.

The Charter Arms Pathfinder and Ruger LCR are definitely on my list for this, and I might consider a birdshead grip Ruger Bearcat as well.

The safe bet is a 357 because there is a chance of bears. I would have bear spray too and snake shot.
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So, you would advocate not complicating things with two or more guns and just taking one .357mag? What is the utility of snake shot? Does it really make it easier to hit a snake, or is it just to lessen the chances of a ricochet? I live near snakes (as pretty much everyone does) and the land-based poisonous snakes where I'll be are pretty much the same as here and don't worry me. I doubt I'll need to shoot one if I'm careful. It is the water snakes that bother me (even the non-poisonous water snakes you find around here can be pretty aggressive, so the broken record, it is the water moccasin I'm worried about). How badly might a JHP or LSWC ricochet with water as a backstop?
 
I've canoed since 1963, the first few years with just a Crosman 38T .22 caliber CO2 pellet gun, then a .22 rifle, briefly, and then always with a shotgun (during waterfowl season)and a Colt New Frontier .22. In all those years there was one instance where a snake tried to get in the canoe. Unable to tell if it was venomous or not, we dispatched it with a load of fours from a 12 ga. Another time I flipped the canoe (the only time ever in over fifty years of canoeing) in a rain-swollen river I had no business getting into in the first place, and the old Colt, in a full flap cavalry holster, survived fifteen minutes in raging flood rapids. Gotta love those cavalry holsters. A few years ago I gave up the Colt to my youngest son (the little snot has gotten real good at talking me out of guns), and replaced it with a Single Six in .32 H&R magnum, which has since been replaced by a couple of S7s in .327 FM. I hardly ever shoot anything anymore but the .327s. It's my new .22 and .357 all rolled into one convenient package. .357 punch, if I want it, in a .22 frame. And a single action to boot. What else could one want? I like it so much, I've done something I've never done with a handgun before, ordered and installed custom, hand made grips from a chunk of premium grade walnut I've had laying around for years. Pachmeyer and Hogue just weren't going to cut it. I am all about the .327 these days, and boost it every chance I get. Check it out in Single Seven (it's a seven shot six shooter, just like Handsome Stranger carried in "The Villian") or SP101 or LCR. BTW, Federal factory 100gr soft points do 1600 fps from my 4 5/8" S7 barrel, and 2241fps out of the 20" Marlin 1894CB reamed to .327 by Ranger Point Precision (thanks, boys it still shoots great). That's some respectable smack right there.
 
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