What at I doing wrong?

I did not get a chance try sizing again last night. No updates so far, hopefully tonight I will try without the +1/4 turn. I will scrap the ones I already did as I was playing with the die and mixed some brass (3) with the first 10 I did. What I did I was -1/4 turn on the last 3 brass just to see if I got the rings and 2 yes and 1 no.
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You don't have to scrap them, they are ok. I don't know that once is even going to impart them long term.

Just shoot them and then work on the minimal shoulder bump back.

As long as the re-sized brass fits in the gun with no hard turning of the bolt you are good.

Poor mans minimal shoulder bump bacl.
 
Head Space Gauges:

Having worked with these for a while, all you really need is one.

Go gauge then tape on the back duplicate a no go and two layers field reject.

Or you can add freezer or painter tape on the back and mike it (scotch tape is thinner than freeze tape so you can fine tune even more though its not needed). Freezer is .005, close enough to the .004, add another layer and you have field reject.

I like the PTC as they are color coded.

I have coded mine with paint now.

7.5 PTC go on the way just as a cross check.
 
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I like this forum , it let's me talk with people that have the same interests , we help each other , learn new ways even places to buy an repair things . Nice group of people . A pissing contest try another forum.
 
nino , stick to the basics for now . You will fine tune you rounds later on , for now just get comfortable reloading . When you don't understand something just post it on this forum , we are here to help . You will form your own style what works best for your rifle . What starting load are you using ? starting in the middle of the listed load book is safe , what powder & bullet are you using ? List your ( OAL ) Over All Length. Hope I helped , Chris
 
USSR
Don , that's a lot of brass cleaning & sending them to my neck of the woods . On Long Island the outdoor ranges are max. 200 yards never shot long distance .In the cold weather I shoot at an indoor range , hand gun . Picked up a fun gun last year , a Colt New Agent in 45ACP came with Crimson Trace Laser grips , red dot . Bullet hits where the dot is , you can just point an shoot , you can see what your doing wrong when using the laser . Never shot with a laser before , a lot of fun . What is amazing the 3" shoots just as good as a 5" . Good talking to you , Chris
 
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Yes you have cw308 as well as everyone else. Puts my mind at ease for time being. I will be starting at lowest then move towards the middle. Will use Nosler BT 150gr. I bout two boxes of these (will use first) and one box of Nosler BT 165gr (second) and one box of Hornady 150gr with IMR 4064.
 
IMR 4064 is the powder I use , Great choice , stick powder even with light loads it fills the case just fine . I'm a bench rest shooter 308 caliber Rem 700 Where I live the ranges are max. 200 yards , I keep my loads on the low side. Checking the Sierra load book for 30-06 in 150 & 165 HPBT sierra bullets the 150 gr starting load is 44.9 with OAL at 3.250 an the 165gr. Starting load at 41.5 with OAL at 3.185 different books are never the same but close , Maximum loads is where you have to go slow , try an stay below max . easier on your rifle & barrel . Now start loading , its a hobby that never ends mark my words . Be Well , Chris

P.S. In a month well talk about headspace , datum line & ogive but for now go with the book .
 
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When I was working with (teaching) Auto Electrician Apprentices I kept it simple. I could have started out with Electronic Theory, but I found it best to K.I.S.S. and start with the mechanics of an electronic system without getting into how a diode or SCR works and why he needed to know that to rebuild an alternator. It didn't take long and I eased them into theory as it was needed for each phase of work they did. When they left me after a year, they had a good grasp on how electronics worked in Automotive systems from engine control to volume control (at that time Ford's sound systems would automatically lower if the phone rang).

Same with reloading, starting simple is always best. Information overload is often seen on forums when a newer reloader asks a simple question and replies get into advanced reloading theory...
 
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Same with reloading, starting simple is always best.
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It that was true we would first teach the new reloader to use a press and teach them about the incline plane. There was one professor that had a couple of Doctoral Degrees that came by to check my methods and techniques. I did not know he was there and I did not see him. After that no one questioned my methods and or techniques.

F. Guffey
 
When I was working with (teaching) Auto Electrician Apprentices I kept it simple. I could have started out with Electronic Theory, but I found it best to K.I.S.S. and start with the mechanics of an electronic system without getting into how a diode or SCR works and why he needed to know that to rebuild an alternator. It didn't take long and I eased them into theory as it was needed for each phase of work they did. When they left me after a year, they had a good grasp on how electronics worked in Automotive systems from engine control to volume control (at that time Ford's sound systems would automatically lower if the phone rang).

Same with reloading, starting simple is always best. Information overload is often seen on forums when a newer reloader asks a simple question and replies get into advanced reloading theory...
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Don't recall any "theory" being imparted here, just the mechanics of what is taking place as you resize a case. Big difference between tuning a car wrong where the car doesn't run, and reloading a case that has to contain a 60,000 psi explosion just inches in front of your face.

Don
 
Ninosdemente,

Your ring question is what got you into the "ointment", but a little is good to understand in this instance. With normal pressure loads (pressures way too high can change some of what follows), your cases fatten to fill the chamber during firing, except for the solid part of the case head. The fired case then springs back elastically about 0.001", assuming it started at factory new size. When you resize, the sides of the case get squeezed down, pushing the shoulder forward. This elongation remains until the case shoulder meets the shoulder profile in the die, after which it gets extruded back, with the excess brass going into the neck (the cause of the need for trimming, though not necessarily every load cycle). The case, despite lube, usually picks up some fine marks from the sizing die, but these will go down only to where the sizing die stops or to where you run out of widened brass to push back into place. You can almost always see this pretty clearly and it is not a cause for concern. In military brass, the thickness of the head is a minimum of 0.175" from the outside bottom of the head of the case (where the headstamp is). The shell holder deck is 0.125" above that same location, so you would expect to see the end of the sizing die swaging at about 0.175" above the head or higher, depending where the brass profile's wall thins to where the pressure ring forms.
 
When you resize, the sides of the case get squeezed down, pushing the shoulder forward. This elongation remains until the case shoulder meets the shoulder profile in the die, after which it gets extruded back,
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A reloader can shorten the distance between the shoulder of the case and case head, the reloader can not move the shoulder back; when sizing and forming a case the shoulder the reloader starts with is not the same shoulder he finishes with.

Proof? I am the only reloader that has scribed a case; In my opinion the best place to scribe a cases is at the shoulder/case body juncture. When I fire a case the shoulder on my cases do not move, the nice thing about that is: The shoulder on my ejected case is not the same shoulder I started with.

And then there is the confusing part; If the firing pin drives the case forward the case has no choice but to stretch between the case head and case body.

One more time: I have fired cases in one of my chambers with .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber. after firing I ejected the cases with my original shoulder .127" behind my new fire formed shoulder. And the neck? The short neck was proof my original shoulder did not move forward because it was very short.

I could ask: Where did my shoulder go? My original shoulder did not move, it became part of the case body and the neck of the case became part of the shoulder.

F. Guffey
 
USSR said:
Don't recall any "theory" being imparted here, just the mechanics of what is taking place as you resize a case. Big difference between tuning a car wrong where the car doesn't run, and reloading a case that has to contain a 60,000 psi explosion just inches in front of your face.

Don
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On forums, when I reply to basic questions, I reply as if I were talking to an absolute new beginning reloader. And sometimes a self appointed expert will pick my posts apart, word for word. So, I bow to The Firing Line's new, Most High Everything Reloading expert, and will leave this thread, genuflecting as I back out...
 
mikld
I feel the same , but I roll with the Punch's , some of it is way over my head . Cases are cases to me others list it as different mixtures of materials . Headspace , tensions all I'm looking is a 3rd grade answer to the question an there is one. Some like to add much more. Hang in there mikld.
 
On forums, when I reply to basic questions, I reply as if I were talking to an absolute new beginning reloader. And sometimes a self appointed expert will pick my posts apart, word for word. So, I bow to The Firing Line's new, Most High Everything Reloading expert, and will leave this thread, genuflecting as I back out...
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Aw, we will miss your cheap shots, mikld.

Don
 
No russia, I ain't leaving, just tired this thread...

BTW; my shots ain't cheap, they are well aimed sarcastic replies to inflated egos...:rolleyes:
 
Aw, we will miss your cheap shots, mikld.
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From my take he reflects my often confused reading of Mr Guffy.

I mostly skip over it. I assume I am denser than depleted uranium, otherwise I would get it.

Like mlkd I believe simple answer are better answer (knowing that sometimes simple is relative). Maybe the simplest answer is the best answer.

As being dense, I am often confused and simple works better for me. As the questioner would not be asking if he knew all that, then I sort of lean to simple. I can remember being confused. But then I can remember shades of 2 to 4 years old as well. Maybe its my inner wounded child trying to help?

And philosophically , do not all reloaders have a stroke? (or is that to stroke, thinking about the bard, to stroke or not to stroke, that is the question)

Granted there can be some discussion as to weather Mohammad went to the mountain or the mountain went to Mohamed.

In this case (pun intended) did the shoulder move or did the back of the case move?

I think I am a shoulder moving kind of guy, as we reference from the back of the case for much, it would at least be a good mental model (or a base of reference, another pun of course)
 
And then there is the confusing part; If the firing pin drives the case forward the case has no choice but to stretch between the case head and case body.
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Well seeing as how the firing pin dents the primer and while the case may move (depends on how the case fits the chamber me thinks and bench rest shooters like to have to cam the bolt), it also absorbs some or all of the firing pin forwarding.

And as here is a great deal of pressure extreme, said case will then drive back into the firing pin if it does move per most of our reloads.

the solid parts are the shoulder of the chamber, the chamber walls and the bolt head itself (though in fact its the lugs of the bolt that fix the bolt head in place).
 
It's hard to imagine all the little contributors at work. Ever noticed that after firing a low-pressure load you eject a case with the primer high, even though it wasn't high originally? Indeed, firing wax bullets by primer power alone will jam rotation of a revolver's cylinder with the backed out primers if you don't first drill the flashholes out to about 1/8". So, in addition to the firing pin pushing the case forward before the pressure gets too high, the primer itself assists the case going forward by its own pressure forcing it out of the of the pocket and back against the breech.

We know this stuff happens both because the military has used angled mirrors looking down a muzzle to measure bullet movement throughout the firing event with high speed precision laser rangefinders and because of case growth and head separation at higher pressures. If the cases were not pushed forward before pressure grew enough to stick the brass to the chamber wall, the stretch in the brass would not occur at the pressure ring. It is due to the subsequently developing greater pressure pushing the head back against the breech while the rest of the case remains stuck in its forward position. If instead, the case stayed to the rear against all these forces, the shoulder would blow forward but no pressure ring thinning would occur and no case growth would occur because the extra brass filling out the shoulder would draw it from the neck and resizing would merely put it back again.

So, the physical evidence is there. If you look at complete traces of chamber pressure that start at firing pin impact, they develop a low primary hump or ledge before the main pressure build-up begins. That's the primer pressure. It happens first and fastest, setting the pressure conditions needed for powder burn, and then the powder burn gets underway in earnest. This is why, in small capacity cases, a primer can unseat a bullet before the powder has enough pressure to do so. Powder doesn't ignite instantly.
 
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