What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a 4-6 cell Maglite/pistol?

I recently bought a Fenix TK12. That thing is BRIGHT! 280lum.
As an improvised impact weapon...not so great. The bezel is crenelated, but has rather blunt edges. The plus side is it won't eat pant pockets like a surefire could. Overall, I like it. Five brightness settings in three modes. (I use the 120/11lum mode) If you order 123s online, they aren't that much more than regular batteries. CR123s also have a longer shelf life.

I have a 3D cell maglite in my car. Bright, sturdy, not too expensive, and it could make a half-way decent "stay back" tool.
 
John, Maglites are "very" outdated. At least get one of the LED versions. A 3D Maglite LED produces about the same amount of light as the gigantic 5D and 6D incandescent versions but uses the batteries much more efficiently.

The thing is that the Maglites trick you into thinking they are bright for a couple reasons. One thing is that they have a huge bezel which directs a lot of light into a tiny spot with a lot of reach. The other is that Alkaline batteries tend to produce a lot of light output for a brief amount of time then tail off and produce a marginal amount of light for a long time.

You are on a firearms forum asking about using a flashlight as a weapon. Get yourself a tactical light to use with a firearm and your defensive needs are set. I have a couple of Surefires that would put the 6D Maglite to shame at fractions of the size and weight. Don't get me wrong I like Maglites for some uses but for using along with a firearm they are really outdated. I have a 2D Maglite that was issued to and used by my brother when he was deployed to New Orleans after Katrina. I put the Maglite LED drop in and its much brighter than it was before with better and more usable battery life. I'm a Supervisor at a big plant at night. I use this all the time and have only had to change the batteries once in the last two years. Its very bright and stays that way for a long time. I still don't think its a very good tactical light though. The regular Maglite versions are pretty much worthless though.

Check out the site below. This guy is a complete flashlight geek but really knows a lot about flashlights. If you look at the graph the Maglite is only bright for about an hour then produces much less light for a really long time. They will tell you it runs for 11 hours but its producing less than 50% of the original output for 10 of those 11 hours. I realize that he didn't review the 6D version but all flashlights that use incandescent bulbs and alkaline batteries are similar. They are bright for about an hour then the output really drops for the remainder of the battery life. Alkaline batteries just aren't very good for powering high power xenon bulbs. Tactical incandescent flashlights like Surefire and Streamlight produce a good hour of very bright light then quickly tail off before the batteries need to be changed. I don't really like the idea of using 6 D cell batteries to get the same light output of a much smaller and lighter light for the same amount of time.

My go to flashlight for hairy situations is a Surefire 6P LED. That will produce more light than a big 6D Maglite and run for a good 10+ hours with very good output. CREE LEDs are amazing. I also have a rechargable Surefire 9N that uses two incandescent bulbs for two different power levels. The high output bulb is 140 lumens. The only Maglite that can touch that is the Rechargable version. The Rechargable Maglite is actually a pretty good light and popular among LEOs. You really have to see the beam of a good tactical flashlight for yourself. It is a perfect combination of spot and flood. You only get either/or with the Maglite. Its either a really tight spot or a flood with a big donut in the middle. Maglite really needs to use a textured reflector.

http://flashlightreviews.com/reviews/maglite_3d.htm
 
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There are no immediately vital organs in the pelvis. The objective in deploying lethal force (once justified) is to kill; not injure, incapacitate or maim.

If you prefer the latter, carry a Taser or your choice of OC/CS.
Click to expand...

booker, actually a pelvic shot is the recommended shot if being attacked with a knife or other weapon that isn't a firearm. That actually is the only shot that is guaranteed to immobilize an attacker. You can't walk with a broken pelvis. You see, if a guy is running at you with a knife you want to immobilize him, not necessarily kill him. However, that's not recommended if being shot at. You fire as many rounds COM until the threat has ended. A pelvic shot doesn't do any good if the other guy has a firearm.
 
Arrgggh!!

1. The objective to shooting is to stop the opponent. Killing may be a consequence but not the goal.

2. The pelvic shoot was not to immobilize. It was failure to stop drill where the opponent had, for example, body armor and didn't go down from a COM shot or shots. Supposedly easier than a head shot - debated.

3. It is not guaranteed to drop someone, who might shoot you from the ground anyway.

4. It wasn't for knife guys - knife guys get two in the chest, then the head while you are moving in away to disrupt their charge.

BTW, if you start saying rude things because I knocked down the kill statement - bad things happen to your membership. Don't make me do it!
 
Glenn I don't know if your comments were aimed at me. I was simply explaining to booker why some professionals train for pelvic shots. Many agencies believe it is a more reliable way to stop an attacker not armed with a firearm. I agree that the purpose of engaging a target wtih a firearm is stop the threat. A pelvic shot is one of way of accomplishing that. And in some situations one of the few ways to do that. You mentioned some of those reasons.

It can take quite a bit of time to stop an attacker with COM shtos from a handgun in some cases. However if they have a shattered pelvis they are immobilized. The pelvis is a very important part of the human skeletal system. I did say in my post that its not really effective if being shot at. However it can be more effective than COM shots if being attacked by a knife or baseball bat though.

Just disagreeing with booker about the objective of engaging a target and the usefulness of a pelvic shot.
 
To sum up my experience.....Let me say that the 6D Mag light works just well. I was a recipient of a 6D cell Mag Lite beating years ago. Go figure the day I leave my pistol home :mad: gggggrrrrr. Never AGAIN! Depending on where your hit the first two hits you are stunned and semi conscience or can not use that body part. This went on for what it seemed like an eternity but really was like about 7 minuets. I felt like I wasn't in my body when I was getting hit. If I didn't try and block some of the hits with my wrists, arms and legs or try and grab the bloody flashlight I would be dead. I could see the hits coming but some of my blocks were late because of the beating. My motor skills and hand / eye coordination weren't connecting. In my case I was stunned and they kept beating me, until I regained my senses and was able to muster back a good fight. I really didn't feel much pain until the day after, dont get me wrong I sure felt it, but was worse the next day. I guess I lost to much blood to be worrying about pain or my adrenaline was pumping...dont know :confused:

But ya they work just well and a night club....don't worry about that.
 
The following is personal opinion based on experices over the last 35+ years.

Surefire & other "tactical lights" serve two primary functions - illumination and visually impairing the target/suspect. The ultra bright lamps do both these functions very well. Their small size and relative light weight, combined with a momentary on/off switch (usually in the tailcap) means they're easy and convenient to use with a handgun. As an impact weapon, I'd rate them as poor simply because they lack reach and mass.

Maglites & other heavy duty aluminum lights serve several functions, depending on size. The heavier aircraft aluminum bodies can serve as impact weapons in a close quarters fight. They're usually bright enough to cause the target/suspect to squint or avert looking in the direction of the light. The adjustable heads on some allow a wide "search" beam or a narrow "intense" beam. Multiple battery units (over 2-cell size) supply an extended run time and add useful striking reach to the light.

C-Cell vs. D-Cell lights - Tac lights using small CR123 batteries are easy to hold in one hand. But the larger Maglight styles come in either "D" cell or "C" cell. Most common is the "D" cell. In the 60's-80's, many police used the multiple C-Cell Kel-Lite because the smaller "C" cell size allowed the flashlight to fit into a baton ring on the belt. During a fight, The longer 18-24" lights could easily be subsituted for a baton. Same techniques and similar tactics. With fresh batteries, the C-cell was just as bright as the D-cell. D-cells offered longer running time for traffic control, searching, vehicle repair, etc. The down side was they were about 15% heavier and harder to keep your grip on them.

Civilian Usage:
For the average civilian in a CCW situation, the tactical lights like "Surefire" lights offer bright illumination, blazingly blinding white light, easy use and good concealment. In plastic or aluminum, it's simply a good choice because you can always carry it alongside spare ammo or a cell phone.

For home or car use, I still prefer a 3 to 4 "C" cell light because you get more grip around the light. Unless you have the hands of an NFL linebacker, this will be critical if you use the light as a defensive impact weapon. But when selecting a light to use with a handgun, remember that the longer the light, the more difficult it will be to balance and keep the light on target. Those batteries are heavy and will pull down at the rear. Strong wrists are needed. For women and teens especially, the C-cell is the obvious choice to allow them to grip the light easily.

From experience in using them, the D-cell Maglight style lights lose their usefulness as impact weapons if you go beyond about 5-cell sizes. Too heavy to be really useful in close-in fight. All that mass & inertia will start working against you.

The longer, thinner C-cell lights that emulate a baton (6-10 cell) work well only if you know baton techniques. Yes, there's more to it that simply raining down blows on someone (aka "nine from the sky"). Otherwise stick to the 3-4 cell models.

Legal Warnings:
In some jurisdictions, if the flashlight contains a spacer that replaces battery capacity (i.e. a 4-cell light with a 6-cell length) the D.A. may classify the flashlight as a bludgeon, "nightstick" or other illegal weapon. Be sure you understand how authorities will view such a flashlight before carrying one like that.
 
Thanks Bill. That was the best description so far. For illumination, it seems likke the CR123A flashlights can't be beat...but I dont have one of those batteries hanging around here and thats the main disadvantage versus getting the AA. I have plenty of double A batteries and can probably get a few of those out of some odd device around here if needed during a real emergency.
 
Really, a better way to stop with a pelvic shot?

I never heard that one -so I learned something. Every presentation I had of it was that it was a failure to stop drill - independent of the weapon present.

Immobilization by a shot at a moving part of the lower body seems a bad idea as it's iffy for the drop and shattering. I've been told that the shattering is not a given - at lots of times you just get a hole or even if you get a crack, it's not imobilizing.

I guess it's an empirical question about what's easier to hit, the head or the pelvis in the right place on a moving person while you're moving.

As far a stop vs. kill - here's our logic.

1. We don't support blood lust which we get from some folks (not in this thread particularly) where they expound how they would KILL!

2. If you go to court and the shoot is ambiguous - having posted that you shoot to kill rather than stop - might imply a motive and mindset to the jury. Your posts could be found and used. Thus, we prefer folks don't say that.

If I was cranky - then I shouldn't be.
 
As others have said...

The 6D Mag makes a great club; I know this from personal experience.

Right after I got out of the Marines I had the second worse job of my life. I was a flashlight cop at a crack motel complex in the San Diego area. Job really sucked and payed next to nothing. anyhow...
I heard desparate screams coming from one of the rooms. I banged on the door but the screams didn't stop. Door was locked so I ended up breaking it open. John or pimp had hooker balled up in a corner and was kicking the crap out of her. He didn't even hear me break the door open. When I yelled "stop!" he turned and charged me. My 1st instinct was to swing that big heavy flashlight. It broke his collar bone but it was still all I could do keep him under control. Somebody called the cops and it didn't take long for them to show. Thank heavens for big heavy flashlights and the San Diego PD.
I quit and moved back to Wyoming shortly thereafter... Only to take the worst job I've ever had:eek:
 
Mag-Lites??

I bought my first one in Memphis Tn after the funeral of one of my favorite uncle's in the late 70's from a Cop-Shop on the South side of Memphis. I carried and used it in my car for the next 20+ years. That was 4 Dcells, plus 2 more up front in the split housing for a really bright light and bulb that never burned out. I still have it along with the spare bulb in the rear cap for it. It has almost the light that my TLR-1 puts out and is mounted on of my EDC gun (a G19) every day. My how times and techologies have changed.
 
JohnH1963 said:
Thanks Bill. That was the best description so far. For illumination, it seems likke the CR123A flashlights can't be beat...but I dont have one of those batteries hanging around here and thats the main disadvantage versus getting the AA. I have plenty of double A batteries and can probably get a few of those out of some odd device around here if needed during a real emergency.
Click to expand...

The CR123A batteries are commonly available in camera/battery departments of places like Walgreens, Longs/CVS, Wally world and others. Still, they're much more reasonably priced from Surefire. You can even buy no-name brands on-line from battery suppliers for as little as 91 cents per battery.

I'm in agreement with Glenn about the thought processes during a shooting.
The goal is to stop someone from killing you or causing great bodily injury. If you use lethal force in that situation, as soon as the person stops attacking or threatening (you or others) then you've accomplished the mission. Whether the person lives or dies as a result of your efforts to repel his violence is a secondary concern.

Also, I'd remind y'all that while the aluminum flashlight makes a dandy club, if seen, your opponent may prepare himself to ward off a club-like strike. Thus, the unexpected can be used to advantage by thrusting the end of it like a sword. Being hit in the mouth or nose with the blunt butt-end of a flashlight will let him see lights of a different sort. A good shot to the solar plexus (diaphram) can keep him busy trying to just breathe. Or you can crouch over while using a short circle to drive the light sideways into his knee or shin with enough force to break the bone.
 
This is a bit off-topic, and I 100% agree with Glenn's post above.. but I'm curious how do you connect "using lethal force" with the "intent to stop?"

Defending your home against an intruder with a Louisville Slugger, a .38 snubby, or an M1.. is the .30 Cal more lethal, and could that be used to show intent to kill, rather than just stop?

Is the mere selection of defense weapon enough to demonstrate intent?
 
It's a thread hijack. But I think, and worth what you paid for it, that you use an instrumentality that has a clear potential due to design to be lethal. A firearm is designed to have that clear potential while a pepper spray is designed to have a lesser probability of lethality (why not a cyanide spray?). The law states that you are able to use methodologies that can be lethal and if the situation is justified, lethality per se is not illegal.

However, your intent in the situation is to stop it - but the law recognizes that you can use up to lethal means to do so - not that you wanted it to be lethal necessarily.

The correlation of lethality and stopping is high and accepted. But the intent is not stated to be lethality. If we do ever invent phasers with reliable stun settings, then the Federation's Brady bunch might argue for a ban on lethal phaser setting for civilians.

The risk for a poster is to put forward that they wanted to be lethal in action. If the shoot is not clear, then intent might be overtly or subconsciously viewed as making you more likely to shoot in a manner which was not legal.

Jurors with negative views towards firearms will probably fixated on that.
 
booker_t said:
This is a bit off-topic, and I 100% agree with Glenn's post above.. but I'm curious how do you connect "using lethal force" with the "intent to stop?"
Click to expand...

Let's also remember that the law was written to permit you, under certain circumstances, to use "whatever means" to save your life or the life of another against attempts at murder or great bodily harm.

The object used is nearly irrelevant. The law says it is justifiable to use force, up to and including lethal force to repel the attack. The person who doesn't own a gun may use some lethal instrument - a machete, sword/cutlass, fireplace poker, etc. But that use has to be consistent with the law. If the attacker ceases being a threat then the victim ceases using force against the attacker.
 
Heck all this talk of Maglites being outdated... I still have and USE an original MX-991\U from Vietnam.


Just to clarify I wasn't in Vietnam, the light was given to me by my grandfather.
 
I did see the CR123a batteries on Amazon and if you buy them in bulk then you can get them down to a $1. On the other hand, you can get 40 Kirkland AA's on Amazon for $15 (Consumer Reports says these are just as good as Duracell/Energizer) and that comes down to 37 cents a battery.

When I was buying my Fenix light, I took different things into consideration between the AA and CR123A models. What it came down to was that AA batteries would be more available in emergency situations then CR123as.

For example, there was a blizzard here some months back which took out the power for an extended period of time. I had plenty of flashlights and batteries for that time, but lets say I did not have spare batteries when it hit. I could easily fish out some AA batteries from my camera flash or a travel clock radio. There are lots of AAs sitting in my draw. Another example, earthquake hits and the building collapses around you. You are stuck inside the wreckage with a little room to move around. Do you think you can find more AAs in that small room or CR123as?

I have confidence that AAs will be more widely available then CR123s in the event of a disaster.
 
I just picked an LED Mag-light set at Costco for $29.xx for anyone interested...
 

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