What about the 458 Mag or 35 Whelen for Home Defense?
- Thread starter Glamdring
- Start date
Only once was my home invaded by an unwelcome guest... Those squirels can sure be damned hard to get out of your house too. My dog chased them out, after about 1 hour of running around 
I think a Supersoaker 50 would have been an Ideal arm for tihs event.
Now if something 2 legged had entered, 12ga would be more effective.
I think a Supersoaker 50 would have been an Ideal arm for tihs event.
Now if something 2 legged had entered, 12ga would be more effective.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Glamdring, I think that folks aren't so much *advocating* the .308 or '06 for home defense, so much as saying that they will do anything necessary in lieu of your wonder-thumpers. They are also far more useful in most non-self-defense situations--hunting, target shooting. If a hand grenade will do the job, why use a nuke?
My problem with your deal--which should have been fairly clear from my earlier comments--is that the phrase "home defense" pretty much *eliminates* rifles from the equation, insofar as necessity or priority. (If all one owns is a rifle, that is what would be used--obviously. And the issue of over-penetration has been "beat to death", here.)
Sorta: Seems to me you're trying to justify a solution when there isn't really a problem. Dangifino.
, Art
My problem with your deal--which should have been fairly clear from my earlier comments--is that the phrase "home defense" pretty much *eliminates* rifles from the equation, insofar as necessity or priority. (If all one owns is a rifle, that is what would be used--obviously. And the issue of over-penetration has been "beat to death", here.)
Sorta: Seems to me you're trying to justify a solution when there isn't really a problem. Dangifino.
, ArtNevada Fitch
New member
Here is my idea of a couple of home defence rifles.The first is a Marlin 1895 leveraction in 45/70 with a iron sights.It could just as easy be a 30/30 or even a 44 mag.My second choice is a Browning BLR 308 carbine with a Leupold 1.5X5 VAri-X III scope set on 1.5 power.My last choice is quite capable of handling any problem from ten feet to 400yds and doesn't look all that sinister to a jury either if it came to that.Since I live in a rural area The BLR is the first thing I would grab after my 45 auto.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Glamdring,
My biggest problem with using such a rifle/cartridge for home defense isn't overpenetration, it's a combination of recoil coupled with the relatively slow action time.
I wouldn't be inclined to get my Savage 99 in .300 Savage out of the rack unless it was the only rifle available.
It's slow to load, the action is relatively slow to work (although it's a bit better given that it's a relatively short cartridge).
Any way you cut it, though, my last choice for home defense is a rifle.
My biggest problem with using such a rifle/cartridge for home defense isn't overpenetration, it's a combination of recoil coupled with the relatively slow action time.
I wouldn't be inclined to get my Savage 99 in .300 Savage out of the rack unless it was the only rifle available.
It's slow to load, the action is relatively slow to work (although it's a bit better given that it's a relatively short cartridge).
Any way you cut it, though, my last choice for home defense is a rifle.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Re-reading the posts, and thinking about all this stuff some more: In a home-defense situation, what is "Handgun Distance", what is "Shotgun Distance" and at what point do we get to "Rifle Distance"?
For city dwellers, at what distance does somebody become a threat? How do you tell? Could the fella with a rifle/shotgun/etc. be returning a borrowed gun to your neighbor? Took a shortcut across your lawn?
At night, by the time somebody is close enough to be seen, and to be identified as a threat, what's the utility of a rifle over a handgun or shotgun?
I need to learn of the situation clearly called "home defense" wherein a rifle would be a weapon of choice, when other choices are available.
Thankee,
Art
For city dwellers, at what distance does somebody become a threat? How do you tell? Could the fella with a rifle/shotgun/etc. be returning a borrowed gun to your neighbor? Took a shortcut across your lawn?
At night, by the time somebody is close enough to be seen, and to be identified as a threat, what's the utility of a rifle over a handgun or shotgun?
I need to learn of the situation clearly called "home defense" wherein a rifle would be a weapon of choice, when other choices are available.
Thankee,
Art
I have been looking for a surplus Spanish Cannon that I can wrap some piano wire around so it it can shoot further without blowing up, I need it to mount in my front yard to blast the Tanks,Hummers etc. I am also looking for an anti-aircraft Gun, also a source for the cannon balls, any help would be apprecatied.
From one rifle nut to another....
Hey, Glamdring, believe me, sometimes the coolness associated with a big boomer next to the bed a la John Taylor or F.C. Selous has seduced me too.
However, when I realized that the likelyhood of an angry Tembo, Kifaru, Simba, Nyalubwe or M'bogo disturbing the quiet of my slumber in suburbian Virginia was, alas, remote, the problems with overpenetration (with the liability associated to it!), noise, slowness of operation, etc. has made my better sense prevail.
If you want to keep a rifle next to the bed (I've done it for years), go with a pistol caliber lever gun, such as a "shortie" like the Winchester Trapper or the more "stylish" Marlin Cowboy. .357 Mag or .45LC would make excellent choices.
You can also attach one of those nifty and authentic-lookin' Lyman vernier sights, and, after you unscrew the disc you've got a pretty functional ghost ring that would make Cooper proud.
Speaking of Cooper, I remember him advocating the 30-30 lever-action gun as a very functional LE piece a few years back. And if it's good 'nuff for the boyz in blue....
Although there is always a sacredness associated to the Guru's advice, I would still go pistol caliber, 'cause Cooper was talking about cops operating outdoors, mostly.
Keep your powder dry!
Tom
Hey, Glamdring, believe me, sometimes the coolness associated with a big boomer next to the bed a la John Taylor or F.C. Selous has seduced me too.
However, when I realized that the likelyhood of an angry Tembo, Kifaru, Simba, Nyalubwe or M'bogo disturbing the quiet of my slumber in suburbian Virginia was, alas, remote, the problems with overpenetration (with the liability associated to it!), noise, slowness of operation, etc. has made my better sense prevail.
If you want to keep a rifle next to the bed (I've done it for years), go with a pistol caliber lever gun, such as a "shortie" like the Winchester Trapper or the more "stylish" Marlin Cowboy. .357 Mag or .45LC would make excellent choices.
You can also attach one of those nifty and authentic-lookin' Lyman vernier sights, and, after you unscrew the disc you've got a pretty functional ghost ring that would make Cooper proud.
Speaking of Cooper, I remember him advocating the 30-30 lever-action gun as a very functional LE piece a few years back. And if it's good 'nuff for the boyz in blue....
Although there is always a sacredness associated to the Guru's advice, I would still go pistol caliber, 'cause Cooper was talking about cops operating outdoors, mostly.
Keep your powder dry!
Tom
Lonnie Jaycox
New member
Art,
I agree with you. I live in an urban setting but have a very large park with heavy vegetation across the street from my house. The other night I heard some gun fire in the park--although I did not know where it was directed. I guess some fool could go sit behind a tree and start shooting at my windows but I guess I would just hide behind my masonry walls untill they got close enough that I could use my shotgun, or maybe pull out my lever 30-30. I just have a hard time thinking what in the world would go on where I could not hold my house with a pump shotgun. Someone would need a 50 BMG to shoot through my walls. I did hear a story from South Central LA during the riots where a large crowd of looters were deterred by men with AK style rifles. Maybe the magazine size was more intimidating than anything else. Big bore and loud boom don't matter in that case. I think a 12 pump would have cowed them too. Even if someone is in a car--buckshot will clear glass and metal, even if the first shot is not lethal the second through the window damn sure is. I don't know, maybe I am just an optimist but my G20 and 870 seem like more than enough to me.
I agree with you. I live in an urban setting but have a very large park with heavy vegetation across the street from my house. The other night I heard some gun fire in the park--although I did not know where it was directed. I guess some fool could go sit behind a tree and start shooting at my windows but I guess I would just hide behind my masonry walls untill they got close enough that I could use my shotgun, or maybe pull out my lever 30-30. I just have a hard time thinking what in the world would go on where I could not hold my house with a pump shotgun. Someone would need a 50 BMG to shoot through my walls. I did hear a story from South Central LA during the riots where a large crowd of looters were deterred by men with AK style rifles. Maybe the magazine size was more intimidating than anything else. Big bore and loud boom don't matter in that case. I think a 12 pump would have cowed them too. Even if someone is in a car--buckshot will clear glass and metal, even if the first shot is not lethal the second through the window damn sure is. I don't know, maybe I am just an optimist but my G20 and 870 seem like more than enough to me.
Maybe my Spanish Cannon is a little over kill. But being more serious, use what you have, if it is not right for what you expect to happen save $$s for what would be used for normal home defence, hand gun 30/45 cal,12 guage shot gun.
Just buy a bunch of guns, Rifles, Pistols, Revolver etc.
Make sure you know how to use the ones you have. And most important your primary defence gun/guns
Just buy a bunch of guns, Rifles, Pistols, Revolver etc.
Make sure you know how to use the ones you have. And most important your primary defence gun/guns
Hey guys I am not talking about the high powered rifle being first, 2nd, or even 3rd choice for "defense". On my list it is last, reserved for a very narrow list of situations.
Remember one doesn't bring a handgun to a gunfight, by choice. The shotgun, carbine [ie AR or pistol caliber], or Thumper [Cooper's concept] is what you would bring to a handgun fight. While most serious people IMHO would bring a battle rifle [ie M1, HK, FAL, etc] or bolt gun ['98 Mauser, SMLE, '03, or a scoped precision rifle, etc] to a gunfight by choice.
What I was trying to get was ideas & suggestions for a full powered rifle that would work for hunting big game with full powered loads & also fit the role of a scoped bolt rifle for goblin trouble, but would also with reduced loads work like a bolt action Thumper.
I don't think the 458 is really flexable enough, I have mentioned already in this thread that I think the 35 Whelen would probably work better for this.
And I don't think the 308 class of cartridges is enough for large big game.
Remember one doesn't bring a handgun to a gunfight, by choice. The shotgun, carbine [ie AR or pistol caliber], or Thumper [Cooper's concept] is what you would bring to a handgun fight. While most serious people IMHO would bring a battle rifle [ie M1, HK, FAL, etc] or bolt gun ['98 Mauser, SMLE, '03, or a scoped precision rifle, etc] to a gunfight by choice.
What I was trying to get was ideas & suggestions for a full powered rifle that would work for hunting big game with full powered loads & also fit the role of a scoped bolt rifle for goblin trouble, but would also with reduced loads work like a bolt action Thumper.
I don't think the 458 is really flexable enough, I have mentioned already in this thread that I think the 35 Whelen would probably work better for this.
And I don't think the 308 class of cartridges is enough for large big game.
If someone was about to come through the door intent on killing me, and I had the option of any handgun or a .35-.45 caliber large game rifle loaded with "varmint" ammo, I would pick the rifle.
Here is how I would rank weapons for defense of a "safe" room:
1. Shotgun
2. Intermediate power self loading rifle
3. Full power self loading rifle
4. Bolt/Lever rifle in a "deer" caliber
5. Large dangerous game rifle .35-.45cal
6. Handgun
If the family is behind me and I live in the sticks, then #1 and #3 trade places.
In reality if you can afford to hunt large dangerous game, then you can afford a shotgun.
*******
To make the big bore rifle better for HD, I would say load it with the lightest most rapidly expanding round that will hold together in flight.
Shooting cars is mentioned above and in my opinion unless you have an anti-tank or anti-aircraft gun, you should get out of the way.
Here is how I would rank weapons for defense of a "safe" room:
1. Shotgun
2. Intermediate power self loading rifle
3. Full power self loading rifle
4. Bolt/Lever rifle in a "deer" caliber
5. Large dangerous game rifle .35-.45cal
6. Handgun
If the family is behind me and I live in the sticks, then #1 and #3 trade places.
In reality if you can afford to hunt large dangerous game, then you can afford a shotgun.
*******
To make the big bore rifle better for HD, I would say load it with the lightest most rapidly expanding round that will hold together in flight.
Shooting cars is mentioned above and in my opinion unless you have an anti-tank or anti-aircraft gun, you should get out of the way.
Remember Dirty Harry's countersniper rifle?
Somehow I can't stop thinking of Clint Eastwood in one of the Dirty Harry movies. He was staking out a rooftop, waiting for a sniper who had been terrorizing the city. His weapon? A .458 magnum bolt rifle with iron sights!
He could get off a round about every five to second seconds.
Maybe I never understood the initial question here. I do believe that just about any type of firearm could make a good HD weapon, depending on the circumstances. But it is hard imagine circumstances where a .308 wouldn't be better than a .458.
I read an article about the actor Peter Fonda once, written in the seventies, when he was fairly obscure and not working much. He had a big house out in the foothills of California. In his second story bedroom, he had a window overlooking the approach to his house and providing good fields of fire. The interviewer noted a scoped Belgian bolt gun in 30'06 leaning in the corner. Nothing weird about that!
Somehow I can't stop thinking of Clint Eastwood in one of the Dirty Harry movies. He was staking out a rooftop, waiting for a sniper who had been terrorizing the city. His weapon? A .458 magnum bolt rifle with iron sights!
He could get off a round about every five to second seconds.
Maybe I never understood the initial question here. I do believe that just about any type of firearm could make a good HD weapon, depending on the circumstances. But it is hard imagine circumstances where a .308 wouldn't be better than a .458.
I read an article about the actor Peter Fonda once, written in the seventies, when he was fairly obscure and not working much. He had a big house out in the foothills of California. In his second story bedroom, he had a window overlooking the approach to his house and providing good fields of fire. The interviewer noted a scoped Belgian bolt gun in 30'06 leaning in the corner. Nothing weird about that!
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
"What I was trying to get was ideas & suggestions for a full powered rifle that would work for hunting big game with full powered loads & also fit the role of a scoped bolt rifle for goblin trouble, but would also with reduced loads work like a bolt action Thumper."
Well, why didn't you say so in the first place???
There ain't any.
, Art
Okay, look. "Full-power", to me, means something around .338 on down to an '06. Roughly. A "Thumper" launches something around 350 to 500 grains in the mid-2,500s or so, mas o menos. So, how do you load down with a lesser cartridge and achieve performance as you state? And what, in North America--other than the large bears--requires a Thumper? I'm not knocking them as fun toys, but there are beaucoup cartridges out there that will kill any big game, which cost less to shoot and with less thump on your shoulder...
Well, why didn't you say so in the first place???
There ain't any.
, ArtOkay, look. "Full-power", to me, means something around .338 on down to an '06. Roughly. A "Thumper" launches something around 350 to 500 grains in the mid-2,500s or so, mas o menos. So, how do you load down with a lesser cartridge and achieve performance as you state? And what, in North America--other than the large bears--requires a Thumper? I'm not knocking them as fun toys, but there are beaucoup cartridges out there that will kill any big game, which cost less to shoot and with less thump on your shoulder...
I thought a Thumper was what Cooper termed his 100-yard carbine ideal. I'm fairly sure he wasn't talking of a heavy rifle.
So, anyway, when I finally get my .35 Whelen,, if I have a llllllllllllot of time, I may download some loads for home defense. Say, a 180-grain .357 XTP at 1350 fps or so...Or, maybe, a 148-grn DEWC at 1000 fps or thereabouts.
So, anyway, when I finally get my .35 Whelen,, if I have a llllllllllllot of time, I may download some loads for home defense. Say, a 180-grain .357 XTP at 1350 fps or so...Or, maybe, a 148-grn DEWC at 1000 fps or thereabouts.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Spectre, you're right. Howsomever, I wasn't thinking about this new-fangled stuff ; I was thinking about what Big Stuff does to a shoulder--Thump!
, Art
; I was thinking about what Big Stuff does to a shoulder--Thump!, ArtThe Thumper concept according to Cooper would be a short light [4.5 lbs] semi auto carbine chambered for the 44 automag cartridge [a 240 pistol bullet @ 1800 fps].
The reduced loads I mentioned for the 458 would be a bit warmer than that [300 grain bullet @ 2000 fps] but the gun would be around 9 to 10 lbs so recoil would probably be less than Thumper.
The reduced loads I mentioned for the 458 would be a bit warmer than that [300 grain bullet @ 2000 fps] but the gun would be around 9 to 10 lbs so recoil would probably be less than Thumper.
Johnny Guest
Moderator in Memoriam
Thumper?
As I recall, Jeff Cooper's "Thumper" was/is a custom .460 G&A built up on one of the rare Z-something Magnum Mauser actions. It was set up specifically for large and dangerous game, in Africa, though it would be wonderful for the big bears. I got to shoot it several times while at Gunsite in 1980. You call whatever YOU want, "Thumper." That was what Col. Cooper called Thumper. Heavy. Expensive. Special purpose rifle. He did NOT keep it handy for home defense
I don't doubt it would stop a hijacked Greyhound bus in its tracks, though.
Personally, I think the .50 BMG Barrett would be superior for trespasser control. Failing that, I blush to admit, I rely on a very standard handgun and a mild state of paranoia to defend my premises.
Best,
Johnny
MOLON LABE!
As I recall, Jeff Cooper's "Thumper" was/is a custom .460 G&A built up on one of the rare Z-something Magnum Mauser actions. It was set up specifically for large and dangerous game, in Africa, though it would be wonderful for the big bears. I got to shoot it several times while at Gunsite in 1980. You call whatever YOU want, "Thumper." That was what Col. Cooper called Thumper. Heavy. Expensive. Special purpose rifle. He did NOT keep it handy for home defense
I don't doubt it would stop a hijacked Greyhound bus in its tracks, though.
Personally, I think the .50 BMG Barrett would be superior for trespasser control. Failing that, I blush to admit, I rely on a very standard handgun and a mild state of paranoia to defend my premises.
Best,
Johnny
MOLON LABE!