What about the 458 Mag or 35 Whelen for Home Defense?

G

Glamdring

New member
Now I am not suggesting one would use 500 grain loads for shooting goblins, though the US army did that with the 45-70-500, or that a bolt gun should take the place of an AR, shotgun, or handgun for CQB home defense situations.

But for the type of situations were you might want a bit more range than a shotgun can give you with the same type of power. Not to mention a 500 grain FMJ would have very good anti vehical ability.

I would think a 300 grain HP designed for the 45-70 would start behaving almost like a varmint bullet when you moved the speed from ~1800fps that a 45-70 factory load does to the 2000 fps, 2200fps, or 2400fps that a 458 could do.

The 35 Whelen, or 358 Win, would be even more practical since you could use Speer's 158 Gold Dot HP at 2800-2900fps which isn't that far behind the speed of a 16" or 20" AR but with 100 more grains of bullet, or put another way it would sort of be like hitting the target with a 3 round burst from an AR :D

I suppose the 458 is about as practical as using a lever gun, but the 358 or 35 Whelen is possible in a '98 Mauser or '03 Springfield and M1's. Which are combat proven actions.
 
I can't realy see a HD senario where I would need that powerful of a rifle, but if I did I would opt for one with a flatter trajectory that the 458. If you want anti-vehicle rounds, just pick up some FMJ 30-06. Sounds like a M-1 kinda day.
 
Well to put the "power level" into perspective a 1 oz [437.5 grains] 12 gauge slug does ~1600 fps. That is for a 2.75" shell, with a 3" shell you can get a 1.25 oz [547 grains] @ ~1600 fps. While the "little" 20 gauge with a .75 oz [328 grains] slug does about 1600 fps also.

With the 458 you would be using a lighter and smaller bullet at slightly higher velocity than a shotgun slug.

While the 35's drive a fragil 158 grain bullet to the same speed more or less as a 308 or 30-06 would.

I am more thinking about minimum selection of guns needed to cover wide range of needs/wants. An AR or Shotgun with a 358/35 Whelen would handle many different tasks well.

While the 458 would be much better suited to stopping charging cars :D
 
I keep falling back to "What's the scenario?" Once action starts, you better have it "together", or you're done for. How many guns are you going to tote around the house, "just in case"? What gun, or how many, will be readily available for your use? A kit-gun .22 in hand will be more likely used than a wonder-thumper locked in a safe or hidden in the back of a closet.

I happen to believe that simpler is better. Consider likely scenarios; consider what gun would generally work best over the widest range of LIKELY events, and plan accordingly.

I'm sorta down on big-thump guns for home defense; they are more difficult to reload, re-acquire a target and shoot again. That's why I'm mildly agin .44 Mags, 10-gauges, rifles above .223 or GI Carbine. And, anything outside shotgun range, you're less defending than attacking...

FWIW, Art
 
What is the scenario? I don't have any particular circumstance in mind, just thinking that while a shotgun and a 223 will handle most problems well they have certain limitations. The 12 gauge has very limited practical range even with slugs. While the 223 lacks power IMHO.

While long shots are unlikely in pure self defense, if you are defending others or defending against groups that can skew things a bit.

While the AR can certainly make hits past 200 meters I am not very confident in its ability to stop someone at that kind of range with single rounds. And in my opinion the fewer shots needed the better, I am far more concerned about were missed shots would go than over penetration of hits.

I am trying to keep things simple. I like the power of the 12 gauge over the poodle shooter, but the AR does have more flexibility tactically than a SG. And is a better choice for four legged varmints. So the 12 gauge will probably go into deeper storage eventually. I would like to get my weapon selection down to as few as possible. My choice for CCW is mainstream, but I prefer revolvers for "nightstand" use. But I also like to hunt. So my nightstand gun is a short barreled 44 mag [loaded with CCI's .44 special 200 GDHP].

I have been thinking is that while my concealed carry weapons and the AR are good for defense, plinking, and practice they lack the power needed for hunting big game. So I will end up with one handgun and one long gun that will serve double duty in addition to carry weapons and AR. The 44 revolver fills that role for handgun. But I am not sure yet what the long gun will be. I do have a 308 scout but it isn't what I consider ideal for hunting or for goblins, it is to general purpose for my needs/wants.

Does that make more sense than my initial post for this thread Art?
 
the 308 Scout (or any 308 for that matter) should fill those rolls easily. I realy don't understand the comparison of a 12GA to a 458. They serve very different purposes. For reach out riot protection (possibly against autos) and hunting (I think this is what your asking?) and you don't like the scout idea. Then I would again suggest an M-1 in 30-06; or an M-1A / M14 in 308. Either would serve your stated goals IMHO.
 
Most rifles are too bulky and powerful, while handguns tend to be weak and hard to aim. Why not take the best of both worlds and use a carbine? My home defense weapon is a Winchester '94 in .45 Colt, complete with a tactical light. I've got eleven powerful (but not too powerful) rounds, and I can't possibly miss inside of 25 or even 50 yards. Plus, it only weighs a few pounds. What's not to like?
 
Ok here is the Scenario, a large Tiger breaks in to your house high on catnip and.............................

;)
 
Lets say crack fed maori are breaking into your yurt with rhino hide armor and hiding behind a dumpster full of 2x4's.. then a 458 solid MIGHT make sense.. otherwise you are looking at serious shoot through.

Heavy game rounds are designed for heavy game, any firearm can be used 'defensively' but unless you are in the bush on safari in the middle of a mau mau uprising.. what are the chances of having a .458 at hand?

By the way a .458 solid runs $5 a round.. can you afford to practice?? ;)

Lets file this one under bears, biker zombies and other unwanted guests.
 
Glamdring,

With those two choices, I think I'd opt for a good sword. Even if it were not one of great fame and power.

Doc Hudson
 
Why doesn't anyone like the 500 grain FMJ? :D

Seriously though what my list looks like is this:
1) 9mm's or 45's for CCW
2) 44 mag loaded with 44 specials for nightstand use or with 44 mags for hunting
3) 12 gauge and/or AR to back up handguns in home defense
4) Bolt action rifle to deal with all hunting and goblin situations were the other weapons wouldn't suffice.

I have had a Steyr Scout for a couple of years now, and it just doesn't meet my needs/wants for a bolt action rifle. And while I like the power of a 12 gauge, the AR has the 12 beat on ergonomics and economy for practice.

So what I have been thinking is of moving the 12 gauge and the Scout from ready status to storage. And just using 2 long arms as ready guns, an AR & a bolt gun. Also using just those two long arms for most of my shooting [ie so I would be practicing with what I would use].

As to comparing the 458 to 12 gauge, or 20 gauge. What I am looking at is using something like a modern version of the old guard or practice loads the Army used to use for the '03. A reduced power handload using a 300 grain bullet designed to expand at 45-70 levels should offer very good expansion if you up the velocity by 200 fps. So if you push a 300 grain .458" hollowpoint to 2000 fps your using a slug that is 28 grains lighter than a 20 gauge slug but about 400 fps faster. The 458 is far from optimum for goblin use, but it would handle any animal I want to hunt. And with reduced loads I don't think it is as extreme as one might think at first, it certainly wouldn't be any slower to use than a pump 12 gauge. And at least for me bolt actions are easier to work from prone and from behind cover than pumps.

Wasn't the old military load for the 45-70 a 500 grain bullet at ~1500 fps? And a 405 grain bullet for the carbines?

I think the 35's make more sense than the 458 because you can use 158 grain or 180 grain bullets designed for 357 pistols for goblin use, yet use 250 grain swifts or such for almost any big game hunting. Both the 35's and the 458 would suffer a bit for hunting at the longer ranges.



[Edited by Glamdring on 02-25-2001 at 06:11 AM]
 
Blech. That's my feeling on it.

If things go so seriously far south as for me to need a rifle instead of a handgun or shotgun, the SKS comes out of the rack.
 
Glamdring, your #1 & #2 on the list are just fine. #3 is okay, so long as it's a good hunting shotgun. A shotgun for around-the-house defense would be just as useful were it a 20-gauge.

To actually NEED more rifle than a .223 in a HOME defense situation? I'm just real dubious. Even if penetration of the glass or metal of a vehicle somehow comes into your scenario, any .308 or '06 will do just fine--but that's NOT "home defense".

Art
 
Okay, GD. I know this will not be an exotic enough caliber or solution for you...(I just put a .35 Whelen on layaway, god help me!)

You know I like my M1 Carbine. And that I keep my AR locked up until such time as a member here fully purchases it. BUT- I now keep my Marlin 1895G in close proximity. (Scope turned down to 1.5x.) It is loaded with 300-grn GA Arms SJHP's that I believe exit the muzzle at about 1600 fps. Guy, you have seen what this very arm and load will do to a Level II vest and intervening creosote-soaked wood. You know that my recoil is not excessive, and you are also aware that a .458's blast will be much worse. You are also knowledgeable enough to know that you can tailor your load to produce the terminal effects you desire- one load on your stock for rapid verminsplat, another for deep pen/charging Cape Buff.

What's the problem, buddy? btw, though I don't like its "whippy" bl, *I* think your Scout would make a fine home defense gun. Load it up w/ 110's or 125's-light recoil, rapid expansion-and go...

[Edited by Spectre on 02-25-2001 at 01:26 PM]
 
Spectre: I like the 45-70 round, but lever guns don't work well for me. IIRC your Guide Gun has porting along with the short barrel so I would think the blast would be greater than a reduced level 458 round from a 22 to 24" barrel. The problem with the 308 is the caliber. The 308 just really isn't enough gun for the bigger big game IMO. I want the bolt gun on my list to handle all the big game hunting I will do.

Art: I don't think I "need" a bolt gun for home defense. Note that it is the last weapon on the list that I would plan to use for home defense [and only for situations were the others wouldn't be ideal]. And that I do think that 12 gauge & AR along with handguns would handle most situations.

If I had labeled the thread "Home defense Loads for hunting Rifles" would I have got more feedback on the merits of the various loads a person might use in a high powered rifle for such use?

I still find it a little odd that 223, 308, & 30-06 [all US military rounds] get votes for this use, but loads that are basically a +P version of the 45-70 which was also a military round get slammed without even a second thought? The 45 rifles have less range than the other three military cartridges. And while they would have greater penetration with 500 grain bullets, with the 300 grain HP I mentioned they would probably penetrate less than the 308 & 30-06 would [with most bullets/loads].
 
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